[High level monsters and powers] What can Graz'zt actually do?

[Mercurius]

I'm having trouble getting my head around something in the 4ed rules. In the old days--any edition prior to 4ed---high level monsters, especially unique ones like demon lords and arch-devils, had spell-casting levels, so you could always get a sense of what they can "do," and anyone with double-digit caster levels could "do" a lot. I have always assumed that such beings as demon lords are the equivalent of demi-gods or higher, and thus can "do stuff" on par with powerful spellcasters. If I remember correctly, in 1ed and/or 2ed each "tier" of divinity had a host of powers that they could use at-will. Even a warrior demi-god could still detect magic and teleport (or whatever).

But now, when I look at the stat block of Graz'zt in the new Manual of the Planes (as an example), it doesn't look like he can "do" much. He can fight, he can use his nifty sword and dominate people, and he has a few trained skills, but as far as non-combat oriented powers, there isn't a lot (anything, really) there.

Now I admittedly don't know the rules inside and out, so I could just be missing something. Am I, or is this a major hole in the 4ed rules? I hope it is the former, but if it is the latter then I guess I'm going to have to concoct some kind of house rule system and/or DM Fiatize regularly ("The demon prince waves his hand and summons a goblet of elfblood wine"). I just don't see how a major demon prince wouldn't be able to cast a solid array of spells-- not to mention rituals.

On a related note, I find it strange, even disappointing, that when D&D finally has a system that could relatively easily accomodate spontaneous magic (d20 + relevant ability score + 1/2 level + power type bonus vs. power DC, which might be something like 10 + level equivalent), it doesn't do anything with it. Or is that still to come?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

What sort of abilities did Graz'zt have in previous editions?

What do you mean by spontaneous magic? Do you mean make an ability check to see if you can pull off a spell/ability? Isn't that already covered in recharge abilities?

 

[Anguirus]

Graz'zt undoubtedly has rituals out the wazoo. The stats are just what you use when he's murdering people.

 

[ricardo440]

I agree. Gratzz out of combat can do anything you as GM think it is appropriate for him to do. If he can't do it presumably he has minions who can anyway.
But it doesn't really matter. Writing all this stuff down is just a waste of ink and fills up the stat blocks with irrelevant information.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Graz'zat's stats are there purely as his attributes in combat. If you, as a DM, need Graz'zat to open a portal to the Prime Material Plane and flood it with evil outsiders, you can just have him do it. (A ritual no doubt) But when it comes time for the PCs to take the Fight to Graz'zat, he's not going to waste time in combat opening portals when he could be stomping the PCs into the dirt.

Npc/Monster stats are there simply to say what the monster's powers are in combat. Out of combat, they can do anything the DM would expect them to be able to do. Now, in this case, Graz'zat is powerful entity. Being nearly godlike in strength, Graz'zat might have access to even the most powerful rituals, and assuredly has unique ritual magic only he can use.

In short, he can use any kind of magic the DM wants him to use.It IS hand-waving, but it's written into the rules. (I don't have my books on me, but I believe it is stated in the DMG somewhere)

 

[knasser]

I'm having trouble getting my head around something in the 4ed rules. In the old days--any edition prior to 4ed---high level monsters, especially unique ones like demon lords and arch-devils, had spell-casting levels, so you could always get a sense of what they can "do," and anyone with double-digit caster levels could "do" a lot. I have always assumed that such beings as demon lords are the equivalent of demi-gods or higher, and thus can "do stuff" on par with powerful spellcasters. If I remember correctly, in 1ed and/or 2ed each "tier" of divinity had a host of powers that they could use at-will. Even a warrior demi-god could still detect magic and teleport (or whatever).

But now, when I look at the stat block of Graz'zt in the new Manual of the Planes (as an example), it doesn't look like he can "do" much. He can fight, he can use his nifty sword and dominate people, and he has a few trained skills, but as far as non-combat oriented powers, there isn't a lot (anything, really) there.

Now I admittedly don't know the rules inside and out, so I could just be missing something. Am I, or is this a major hole in the 4ed rules? I hope it is the former, but if it is the latter then I guess I'm going to have to concoct some kind of house rule system and/or DM Fiatize regularly ("The demon prince waves his hand and summons a goblet of elfblood wine"). I just don't see how a major demon prince wouldn't be able to cast a solid array of spells-- not to mention rituals.

Firstly, the thing that you are missing is Rituals. Grazzt has a +27 to Arcana check. A lot of the powers that would have been explicitly listed previously are now rituals which Graz'zt will be scarily good at. That fills in a lot of what you might be concerned about. For some of the other things, you'll need to either adjust things yourself or accept that they are different. There would be nothing wrong with giving Graz'zt the Cantrip power for all his minor effects. Something like Teleport I would not give him because I think it makes him more interesting and individual that he cannot do this. If all Demon Princes had this ability along with others, then they'd all start to play similarly. For the goblet of elf's blood, I'd just make sure that he had some magical servants on hand to serve his every whim.

*IF* you want Graz'zt to have these sorts of abilities, graft on a few powers. It may sound like the sort of cop-out answer that really annoyed me when 4th Ed came out and every concern was shouted down by some fanboy insisting it wasn't a problem because the DM could change it if he wanted, but I've come to find that whacking the odd minor power onto a monster really is that simple and easy. Don't get me wrong - I still have concerns with the game, but on this occasion "just add what powers you like" really is the right one.

Hope this helps,

L.

 

[DracoSuave]

"The demon prince waves his hand and summons a goblet of elfblood wine"

that when D&D finally has a system that could relatively easily accomodate spontaneous magic (d20 + relevant ability score + 1/2 level + power type bonus vs. power DC, which might be something like 10 + level equivalent), it doesn't do anything with it. Or is that still to come?

See, this is the thing. Why would you want a roll to do something like summon a goblet of wine? Does it -need- a system?

Does Grazzt -need- a probability chance of failure to summon wine? Or is that so minor and non-pivotal a detail that as a story teller, you can simply say he does, and move on with your lives?

DMs don't need complex rules systems to cover the background stuff antagonists do that is off camera, and don't even need one for a lot of the stuff they do -on- camera. Do you need to roll to decide if Grazzt can command his demon legions to be in the dungeon for the players? Of course not, if you did, you'd have a 35% chance of not having an adventure.

The -exact- same philosophy applies to the other -trivial- stuff.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

See, this is the thing. Why would you want a roll to do something like summon a goblet of wine? Does it -need- a system?

Does Grazzt -need- a probability chance of failure to summon wine? Or is that so minor and non-pivotal a detail that as a story teller, you can simply say he does, and move on with your lives?

DMs don't need complex rules systems to cover the background stuff antagonists do that is off camera, and don't even need one for a lot of the stuff they do -on- camera. Do you need to roll to decide if Grazzt can command his demon legions to be in the dungeon for the players? Of course not, if you did, you'd have a 35% chance of not having an adventure.

The -exact- same philosophy applies to the other -trivial- stuff.

"The demon prince waves his hand and.... (d20 roll -fail-) waves his hand..... (d20 roll -fail-) and waves his hand again (*come on you* d20 roll -success-) and summons a goblet of elfblood wine."

 

[arscott]

Also, Isn't the abyss Divinely Mutable? As long as he's in Azzagrat, Graz'zt can alter the fabric of the plane itself--I think summoning a goblet of wine is probably covered.

To an extent, though, there is a de-powering of the gods going on here. We're seeing a change from a collection of nigh-omnipotent beings to something more like the norse gods, who need magic items to change shape, for example. And frankly, that's a change I welcome.

 

[Mercurius]

Cool, thanks for the feedback, all. I feel much better now.

I generally take the "storyteller approach" DracoSuave mentions--I was just wondering if I was missing something, or if there was intentionality behind not including more spells; while the jury is still out on that one, as Ltheb said, the stat blocks are combat-focused and don't necessarily have to reflect everything a monster can possibly do. As a demon prince I see him (Graz'zt, not Ltheb) as being able to do "uber-cantrips"--at-will minor powers that are basically "trivial", or at least not game-changing. But this is where it is easy to get caught by the rules, rather than just use them as a framework. The DM, of course, doesn't have to play by the rules.