D&D (2024) High tier Fighter − the mythic warrior

[Yaarel]

@Yaarel

To keep fighters and wizards balanced do you add a bunch of Lon rest abilities and resources to the fighter or do you remove most the long rest abilities and resources from the wizard.

Seems like one or the other is the only way to balance under your definition?

If you want my design preference?

All spell casters switch to spell points that refresh each short rest.

Spells never replace skill checks, but allow opportunities to make skill checks, such as Invisibility allowing a Stealth check while in sight.

Both casters and noncasters use skill checks to perform rituals.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The general standard makes all classes contribute equally in combat.

Therefore.

It is possible in principle, to compare spells and dpr directly. In other words, how much damage-pr is someone willing to sacrifice in order to produce a nondamage spell effect. In the aggregate the answers establish a value that is pragmatically true in most situations. It can mean some spell effects might be too powerful for their currently assigned slot, or that the dpr is lower than it should be.

Also, every class needs to contribute equally to social and exploration encounters.

Therefore, as long as a social or exploration feature doesnt boost combat, the warrior classes can have pure upgrades in power in order to contribute equally to noncomat.


The 4e Dark Wanderer is a great example of an exploration feature that is appropriate for a mythic warrior theme. There are precedents too, such as various accounts of warriors figuring out how to enter (and exit) the underworld.

Except in those examples no one tells the reader "don't worry about it". You still need that explanation, and at least an example needs to be in the text.

 

[Micah Sweet]

1e is an example of a D&D game that lacks class balance. 1e has its fun aspects. At the same time 1e is a cautionary tale that warns why it is important to design for class balance.

1e is balanced fine for my money. Just not in ways that are currently popular.

 

[Shardstone]

If a class is subpar at combat, it is objectively true it will be subpar in a D&D campaign that mainly has combat encounters.

There is more to the game then class. You are assuming your perspective to be objective reality. All I need is an anecdote to prove it wrong.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I’d suggest that there is nothing any fictional martial can do out of combat without the equivalent of spells or magic that is remotely close to what a level 20 d&d wizard can do out of combat.

I'd suggest several things:

• Firstly almost no fictional spellcasters can do out of combat with spells are close to 20th level D&D wizards. We are operating at the extreme end of the fictional power spectrum here.
• Secondly start with Hercules lifting the entire world on his shoulders. Then move through Cuchulain and Celtic myth, then through Outlaws of the Water Margin, and Chinese myth.
• Thirdly for more modern material, start with Goku. Then Superman, Then The Flash. Then the Justice League versions of Batman. Do you want me to continue? Because the empowered martials should be up there in Goku's league by level 20.
• Fourthly even if we ignore that that's no reason why other than in terms of durability D&D martials should be restricted to what real world martials can do.
• Fifthly if you want to be explicit here then just level cap the martials. "Without magic you can't go above level 8".

In combat there’s at least a discussion to be had. Feats, magic items, a good subclass and multiclassing can really increase martial damage output.

Which leads me to this observation - martials will never be able to match current d&d style high level wizards in out of combat capabilities. The fiction just doesn’t support this.

That's because the fiction doesn't support wizards who are explicitly inspired by demigods adventuring alongside martials who are implicitly not allowed to be demigods. Either level cap both or change the fiction to match the contemporary fiction where it does work.

All that said I’m all for shrinking the martial /caster out of combat divide by giving martials nicer out of combat abilities! But the truth is that without a nerf to wizards, that divide is always going to exist and so any attempted solution involving just giving martials out of combat abilities is really a non-solution.

The truth is that the problem is people insist martials must be realistic and that is the problem. Use the tiers. Once you've left tier 2 you've left realism behind - and in tier 4 everyone should be a demigod.

What is needed is for martials to have a clear combat niche that wizards cannot override.

Ideally martials should be much tougher to hit, much more durable, much more mobile and have much more single target damaging than every wizard of the same level.

Wizards still have aoe, control, counterspell, buffs, etc. they’ll be fine in combat and maybe overall still better than martials, but at least martials get a clearly defined niche.

Here we agree.

 

[Yaarel]

The Martial narrative that I am finding interesting is:


For the Martial source, all powers come from training, exercise, discipline, and instinct. Because marvels and wonders pervade existence itself, there is no upper limit to what the Martial hero can achieve.

It is like polishing a sword so clean that the reflections gleam brightly, and then so brightly the sword shines as a light in the darkness.

Some Martial heroes attune the bodily aura of their souls, some attune the fabric of the fate of the multiverse, some become one with a weapon of great power. Each hero makes ones own journey in ones own way.

 

[Shardstone]

The Martial narrative that I am finding interesting is:


For the Martial source, all powers come from training, exercise, discipline, and instinct. Because magic pervades existence itself, there is no upper limit to what the Martial hero can achieve.

It is like polishing a sword so clean that the reflections gleam brightly, and then so brightly the sword shine as light in the darkness.

Some Martial heroes attune the bodily aura of their souls, some attune the fabric of the fate of the multiverse, some become one with a weapon of great power. Each hero makes ones own journey in ones own way.

Can't say magic.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The Martial narrative that I am finding interesting is:


For the Martial source, all powers come from training, exercise, discipline, and instinct. Because magic pervades existence itself, there is no upper limit to what the Martial hero can achieve.

It is like polishing a sword so clean that the reflections gleam brightly, and then so brightly the sword shine as light in the darkness.

Some Martial heroes attune the bodily aura of their souls, some attune the fabric of the fate of the multiverse, some become one with a weapon of great power. Each hero makes ones own journey in ones own way.

That is a very cool narrative. The problem as I see it is simply that it is not the narrative of the fighter. That's why I feel a new class encompassing these themes is the way to go.

 

[Yaarel]

Can't say magic.

I replaced "magic" with "marvels and wonders"?

 

[Yaarel]

That is a very cool narrative. The problem as I see it is simply that it is not the narrative of the fighter. That's why I feel a new class encompassing these themes is the way to go.

Tell me the narrative for your Fighter.