Hijacked Thread in need of closure.

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Beautiful! I hadn't thought about this aspect of it... hrm...

What if lucas said there were "gray" jedi? The jedi that believe that good will perish before evil and that evil will kill itself so the only "true" path was balance? Would that hamper the Star Wars universe.. or expand it?

i think this is more of what im suggesting by allowing the paladin class to open up to other alignments. You'd still have your Good paladins (though we dont really have a core class evil paladin) but Star Wars does... hrm...

still don't fix the rules though....

It's hardly the only rule that isn't airtight

As for the Star Wars thing, Evil Jedi aren't called Jedi. They're called Sith. This is because Lucas recognized the importance of names

 

[Theuderic]

Anyone ever stop to think why the cows are sacred?

 

[jgbrowning]

Anyone ever stop to think why the cows are sacred?

Well i had it explained to me this way.

the cows provide dung for fuel, milk, and urine for drinking for medicial reasons. (yep, urine saw it myself)

joe b.

 

[Theuderic]

Funny but serioulsy.

 

[jgbrowning]

we'll i think they're sacred because their supposed to be identifying marks of a product.

kinda like it takes a certain number of "hits" to match fingerprints. If you dont have enough of them (i cant remember the real term off the top of my head) you cant get a match with any certainty.

Without those things, people would not identify/associate a product with DnD?

justa guess.

joe b.

 

[Xarlen]

No way! I wanna keep my Paladins!

I so want to play a paladin when I get the chance.

A paladin will not attack a vampire who walks down the street, a vampire he knows he will lose against. He will get others, and come back later to fight the vampire prepared. However, if that same paladin encounters the vampire attacking an innocent, he would sacrifice himself that that person might get away. Because he is a paladin. He needn't attack things because they're evil headon. A paladin doesn't have to be an Aweful Good creton who goes around smiting everthing he comes across. Paladins can be just as Smart and Clever, if not crafty, and still be Honest.

Just like William Walice, who was Lawful Good. Sure, he was against the Laws of <i>England</i>, but he was Lawful to the People of Scotland, to the Ideal of Scottish Freedom, because the king was a cruel, LE ruler. What about BATMAN? I so want to play a Rogue/Paladin. He lives by his own code, but he does it with detective-work, with silence, observation, perception, loyalty to Law, and to Good.

Heck, A Bard/Paladin would be fun! (First is a Neutral good Bard, then shifts over to being paladin .

Let's disect some more stuff, in FR terms.

The most obvious are the gods Tyr and Helm. Tyr is the god of Justice. His paladins are going to be your average ones. Helm is a god of Protection. If a paladin of Tyr and a Cleric of Helm are standing by a gate their lord swore them to protect, and a farmer passing by was attacked by orcs, the paladin would swoop in to protect the farmer while the cleric would be forced to protect the gate, at all costs.

Sune is the Chaotic Good goddess of Beauty, Love, Romance, etc etc. She can have paladins. A paladin of her would be a champion for Beauty. If something was defiling the landscape, the paladin would stop it. If something was corrupting beauty, like destroying artwork, they must stop it (A medusa turning people to stone, and then selling them as art?). A succubi using people's love and lust, an Enchanter playing with emotions, this the Paladin would uphold.

A paladin of Mystra, Goddess of Magic (Although she's NG) could uphold the Rightful or Lawful use of magic; magic being used to hurt others. A mage-hunter, if you will.

Heck, I could see a paladin of Eilistraee.

A paladin of Ilmater, God of Suffering, Healing, Martyrs, etc would be more for the relief of suffering, the Martyr to save those who cannot, or to releave the pain and misfortune of others, if that means his life.

I had a Half-orc paladin of Ilmater in my campaign once. He was awesome. Stupid as a brick, but a gentle soul.

Now, I think that some alternate paladins for different aligments, or a Champion of Idealism would be doable, and I'd like to see it. But really, leave the paladin alone.

There's much more you can do with them then 'EVIL! I smite you!' More like 'Okay, you're evil. Look, stop doing this. Okay, you won't, I gave you a chance to repent. Now, stay right here while I go get my friends, and we will return to stop you, with a vengence."

 

[Aaron L]

If anything, there should be seperate "holy warrior" classes for each alignment. I can't think of any literary examples of, say, a Chaotic Good holy warrior, or a Lawful Neutral holy warrior, to base them on.

The paladin is based on the European ideal of knighthood, with the charismatic ability to heal and cure disease with a touch, and a special trusty steed. It isn't just a "holy warrior" class, it is an alignment champion. Opening the paladin class to other alignments would grant these other alignment champions a slew of abilities that probably don't fit very well, and eliminating the abilities would make the class no longer resemble what it is supposed to be emulating, and no longer capable of portraying that type of character.


As an aside, paladin abilities in 3E have nothing to do with gods. Their abilities come from the divine power of Lawful Good itself.

I say make a holy warrior for each alignment, like that old Dragon article. Perrymanders and such.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Personally i think the designers of 3E nailed the coffin on a Paladins excusivity of lawful good when they decided "in order to promote people playing clerics and to prevent us from having to come up with cool gods for every alighnment" for some GOD FORSAKEN reason to allow clerics to have alignments different that that of their gods.

thats the most stupid thing ive ever heard of. (next to paladins be only lawful good that is... heheh )

just kidding there.... since they allowed clerics to do that they of course have to allow paladins to do that (or the internal consistancy would disappear, one of the primary goals of 3E) and unfortunatly they refused to change paladins alignments like they changed druid's alignments to fit the modification they did to clerics and divine magic.

this of course was silly as well. (not as silly as continuing the ludicrious belief that druids, a class that doesn't have to be lawful, would somehow have a world-spanning heirarchy.) that was silly as well.


joe b.

who is also, silly.

The designers of 3E weren't the first to come up with that. I know for a fact it was present in 2E. It might have been in 1E, I'm not sure.

Anyways... why is it so hard to imagine that two followers of the same god could have different alignments? In a lot of cases, alignemnt isn't even an important aspect of the god. If I'm a blacksmith, I'm going to worship the god of blacksmiths, even if I don't agree with everything he says.

How many different Christian denominations are there? Each one interprets the same text in a different way. If real life were as simple as D&D, I bet they'd even have different alignments.

 

[Xarlen]

Anyways... why is it so hard to imagine that two followers of the same god could have different alignments? In a lot of cases, alignemnt isn't even an important aspect of the god. If I'm a blacksmith, I'm going to worship the god of blacksmiths, even if I don't agree with everything he says.

Prime example, and I hate to bring this up, but the Fanatical or Militant worshipers of the Christian, Muslim, or Jewish faith (or any faith) can very well be 'Evil' while by the same token, there can be good worshipers of that very deity.

Enough with the political stuff.

I mean, how hard is it to, for example, see a Kobold paladin. I know, hard stretch, but think about it. Kobolds are the decendents of Dragons, but Which dragons? They are often Evil, but perhaps that's for the constant influence of Chromatic dragons on them.

Let's take a small stretch, and say that some kobolds came from Metalic dragons. And thus, some can be good, and even moreso, that they should hold the tenants of those good characteristics. So a Kobold paladin of a Patron dragon, a Silver or Gold, even a paladin of Bahemut could go forth, and make an example. Give a Positive outlook for kobolds, for a change.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

No way! I wanna keep my Paladins!

Who's taking them away from you?

Just like William Walice, who was Lawful Good. Sure, he was against the Laws of <i>England</i>, but he was Lawful to the People of Scotland, to the Ideal of Scottish Freedom, because the king was a cruel, LE ruler. What about BATMAN? I so want to play a Rogue/Paladin. He lives by his own code, but he does it with detective-work, with silence, observation, perception, loyalty to Law, and to Good.

Fighting for freedom is a chaotic good act, and I don't know that I'd classify vengence-inspired vigilante justice as particularly LG either.

Sune is the Chaotic Good goddess of Beauty, Love, Romance, etc etc. She can have paladins. A paladin of her would be a champion for Beauty. If something was defiling the landscape, the paladin would stop it. If something was corrupting beauty, like destroying artwork, they must stop it (A medusa turning people to stone, and then selling them as art?). A succubi using people's love and lust, an Enchanter playing with emotions, this the Paladin would uphold.

Would a Chaotic Good "paladin" be any less able to fulfill Sune's wishes? Sune teaches that we should "follow our hearts to our true destinations." (Quote from FRCS). Wouldn't following one's heart be difficult for a LG character?

Now, I think that some alternate paladins for different aligments, or a Champion of Idealism would be doable, and I'd like to see it. But really, leave the paladin alone.

Nobody ever said anything about taking the paladin away. We're just talking about opening it up to be a champion of your ideology of choice.