D&D General [History] How heavy armors and long swords were used in the 15th century

[Hussar]

@Hellditch does have the right of it. Sure, two heavy armored humans is one thing, but, frankly, most D&D combat isn't that. Heck, most of the time you're not even fighting things with two arms and legs.

Now, I've always argued that swords are FAR too effective in D&D (sorry, no, you cannot kill an elephant with a sword, let alone a 60 foot dinosaur) but, again, it gets back to that whole suspension of disbelief. Yeah, realistically, all our fighter types should be using spears, of one kind or another, but, fantasy art has taught us that swords and battle axes are just so COOL.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Think they were still in 2E too. I like the concept of that and weapon speed, and also certain spell having an initiative modifier. Ive forgotten exactly how they worked in those editions, though I do recall some extra calculations being involved that slowed combat down. Probably could be streamlined for implementation into 5E.

They have the variant speed factor rule in the DMG. Not as precise as AD&D, but good enough.

You could do something simple using weapon properties in 5E. Maybe something like heavy weapons gain a bonus against heavy armors/ACs, light weapons against light armor, etc.? I don't know, just a thought. I would have to work on it more to come up with something viable.

The weapon speed factor were actually quite easy to implement. It was the weapon vs armor that was quite a pain in the ass to implement.

How do you treat an ogre? Does he have the equivalent of hide armor? Is A dragon is really in plate equivalent? And a beholder? How about a skeleton? How do we treat the bones? Some creatures were clearly disadvantaged by the weapon vs armor rules and other were quite advantage (mainly dragon type with scales).

Yeah, the DM just had to rule if certain natural armors are equal to manufactured ACs.

 

[Helldritch]

In fact the sword was really effective on the battle field. Most opponents a sword wielder would face were peasants, bandits and people that did not have armor on. In these cases, the sword was more effective than a mace or an axe and a bit harder to deflect than a spear. The spear could have its shaft broken (cut in half) by a sharp edge sword. It maybe why the sword has such a good reputation.

But when facing a heavy armored opponent, the sword is a lot less useful. A morning star or a flail is way better against heavy armored (when they connect). And a man in heavy armor was just a wee bit hampered by it. The armored was tailored suit for the wearer and the weight of the armor was evenly distributed on the body. There are video on YouTube that shows a man in full plate making runs, rolls and jumps in one fluid motion sequence without much trouble. The armor was made with materials available in the appropriate era. Only the heavy armored cavalry had to be hauled on their horses as they were facing Awl Pikes that would use the momentum of cavalry to pierce right through the armored opponents/horses. Even then, the connection of the awl pike had to be almost perfect or it would be deflected without too much damage inflicted. The cavalry armor was heavier than a regular one (if I remember correctly, but I read that in an old book that I don't have. So I have to go from memories of 30+ years ago.) and more restrictive but the goal was to break the lines of the opponents.

 

[Helldritch]

They have the variant speed factor rule in the DMG. Not as precise as AD&D, but good enough.

You could do something simple using weapon properties in 5E. Maybe something like heavy weapons gain a bonus against heavy armors/ACs, light weapons against light armor, etc.? I don't know, just a thought. I would have to work on it more to come up with something viable.

Yep, maybe doing it by armor type like no armor/light, medium and heavy and by weapon class: Blunt, piercing, slashing and unarmed.
But in 5ed, the penalties and bonuses should not get higher than (+ or -) 2. Which would make it less savvy in my opinion.

Yeah, the DM just had to rule if certain natural armors are equal to manufactured ACs.

Yep, most animals had a hide equivalent (making bows/x bows really good against them). Reptile had the equivalent of scale mail. And others were about plate (but not field plate and full plate). But it could be worked out into something could be manageable.

 

[Morrus]

I dunno. While I agree that people clearly can move in armor, those guys in that video were moving more slowly and more clumsily than somebody without armor. The one guy did a forward roll and climbed over ladder, but I wouldn't say he did it dexterously. Armour might not be as restrictive as we often think, but it's clear at least a bit restrictive.

 

[Helldritch]

I dunno. While I agree that people clearly can move in armor, those guys in that video were moving more slowly and more clumsily than somebody without armor. The one guy did a forward roll and climbed over ladder, but I wouldn't say he did it dexterously. Armour might not be as restrictive as we often think, but it's clear at least a bit restrictive.

I'm not saying that it is not restrictive, it is. But it is a lot less than most people would think. I've had the chance of wearing one that was not really a good fit for me and I was surprised that I could move so easily. Of course it was not a perfect copy as it was made by the father of friend but I was really surprised how the weight was distributed. It was made out of steel and aluminum but it was close enough to give me a good appreciation of what was possible.

Armor does sacrifice a bit of mobility and agility in favor of more protection. But the loss is not as great as most people think.

 

[Morrus]

I'm not saying that it is not restrictive, it is. But it is a lot less than most people would think.

That's exactly what I just said.

 

[Helldritch]

Just saying that I was in complete agreement with you. Just in case some people might think I was saying that it was not restrictive.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Again, that is why we adjusted the rules for AC and armor slightly. If you have a DEX 18 or higher, you can even get a +2 AC bonus in heavy armor. We also have armor affect jumping distances, acrobatics, etc. by limiting the bonus you can apply.

 

[R_J_K75]

You could do something simple using weapon properties in 5E. Maybe something like heavy weapons gain a bonus against heavy armors/ACs, light weapons against light armor, etc.? I don't know, just a thought. I would have to work on it more to come up with something viable.

Yep, maybe doing it by armor type like no armor/light, medium and heavy and by weapon class: Blunt, piercing, slashing and unarmed.
But in 5ed, the penalties and bonuses should not get higher than (+ or -) 2. Which would make it less savvy in my opinion.

I agree that weapon class vs armor type is the way to go instead of individual pieces of equipment. I think simply getting advantage or disadvantage could do the trick although Im too lazy to give it much thought as to how to incorporate it into the game. Initiative is another thing but could probably be dealt with using advantage and disadvantage as well.