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History, Mythology, Art and RPGs

Votan

Explorer
So it seems to me that this 15th Century armor was probably sufiicient to protect against a .357 magnum at medium range, which is somewhat surprising.

How would this stack up to high pull arrows? Say an English Longbow or a crossbow with a high draw weight?

Or are bows so different in their physics that the questions isn't applicable (given faster loss of energy due to air resistance, lower velocities and pointed tips)?
 

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Galloglaich

First Post
How would this stack up to high pull arrows? Say an English Longbow or a crossbow with a high draw weight?

Or are bows so different in their physics that the questions isn't applicable (given faster loss of energy due to air resistance, lower velocities and pointed tips)?

Bows are different due to the shape and hardness of the projectiles but there are applicable correlations.

I want to stipulate though, that the issue of longbows vs. armor specifically has been an internet fault line for close to a decade and is still an unresolved argument. I don't really care that much about this argument, though I do have my own opinion (which I'm going to share) but I don't claim to know anything definitively, all I can do is share the data I have available and my own $.02.

There have been many tests which have been done with longbows and armor, and none of them satisfy everybody in the debates; people claim different things about the armor used in the test (based on thickness, metalurgy, or tempering if any), or the padding under or over the armor (esp. important with mail), or the bow (estimates of English longbow strength go from 90 lbs to 200 lbs draw, though a consensus is emerging that 110 - 120 was about average during the heyday of what many people are now calling the English Warbow) or the arrows (whether needle-point bodkins or broadheads work best is another point of contention) are correct.

Anyway my current personal OPINION** is that a longbow could not penetrate good quality plate armor*, but it could penetrate mail at most distances (depending on some other factors like how thick the aketon or gambeson is) and could penetrate thinner or more poorly made munitions-grade armor, and go around armor espc. on horses. Obviously massed archery was effective against armored heavy cavalry that couldn't get out of the way just as massed gunfire was well before the era when firearms were capable of directly defeating the best plate armor at long range.

According to Alan Williams the longbow could generate around 80 Joules, but he was testing with a pretty weak bow (I think 70 lbs). If you extrapolate from the power of the weapon he was testing with to more like the ones found on the (16th Century) wreck of the Mary Rose, you could double or even triple that to perhaps 250-300 Joules, but that is still not sufficient to defeat the best quality plate armor and the penetration falls off rapidly with distance. Add in steel armor piercing arrow heads you might get close enough to cross the threshold into penetration for a typical iron (if not a tempered steel) breastplate, but probably only at very short (point blank) range. In my opinion anyway.

Williams estimates that it takes about 1500 Joules to penetrate Medieval Iron armor of 1.9 mm thickness with a lead ball, 900 Joules to penetrate with a steel ball. Tempered steel roughly doubles this to 3000 / 1800 Joules.

Anyway I've got to run my lunch break is over but I'll follow up on this with some more data after work.

G.

*Crossbows may be another story, but more about that later.
** This could change subject to new data becoming available
 
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Galloglaich

First Post
Ok a bit more data etc.

On Crossbows.


Here there is a big blank spot. There have been a lot of studies and amateur testing done on pretty authentic longbows in the last ten years or so, there has been a ton of testing done on armor most notably by Mr. Williams but there have also been several other studies.

There have also been studies done with firearms and armor directly.

But with crossbows there is a blank, mainly because we don't have many crossbows equivalent to those used in the 14th-16th Centuries available for testing. Alan Williams mentions one semi-formal test of a 1200 lb draw antique but detail was scant other than it shot a bolt 450 yards. Most of the antiques which still survive may be too dangerous to test with after 500 - 600 years, and there are only a handful of people around today who have the sufficient knowledge and skill to forge prods capable of the 800 - 1200 lb draw weight of a Renaissance heavy arbalest.

However I have been advised by a smith in the UK that he has a client who recently ordered a 950 lb crossbow specifically for testing, hopefully they will do a good well documented test on some realistic armor and then we will know something further. At this point I don't even know what the energy of a 950 lb crossbow is or how it compares with a longbow or a musket.

http://www.aiacrossbow.com/crossbow/exomax/

I know modern hunting crossbows of between 150 and 220 lb draw generate between 120 - 150 joules depending on the quarrel used. I assume a 1,200 lb draw arbalest would be significantly more powerful than that but various other factors like the span distance (short on most antique crossbows) and size of the prod all factor into the power of the weapon. Crossbows do shoot a bolt about twice as heavy as the arrow shot by a longbow. How powerful were Renaissance crossbows? We really don't know at this point. In the heydey of plate armor in the 15th Century, they apparently considered crossbows a significant but not insuperable threat. Italian armor of this period was proofed at two levels, for the 'little crossbow' and for the 'big crossbow'. The latter was a higher grade of armor (the top grade).

On Firearms


Here is some more information from 'Knight and the Blast Furnace':
from Chapter 9 of Williams' book, p. 942 - 948
1.9mm wrought iron plate requires 900J from a steel ball or 1500J from a lead ball to defeat it.
2mm of Good quality tempered steel armor can resist about 1800J from a steel bullet or 3000J from a lead bullet.
An average quality 4mm iron cuirassier's breastplate (17th century) would need 2000J to defeat it.
There were also up to 6mm thick iron cuirasses in the 17th Century and special laminate cuirasses made from 2mm of steel and 3mm of iron. These were apparently very effective but I don't have any data on them yet.

From p. 945
a Hussite 15th C handgun with serpentine powder produces 500-1000J at the muzzle.
early 16th C arquebus with serpentine powder produces 1300J at the muzzle
the same weapon with corned powder produces 1750J
later 16th C musket with serpentine powder produces 2300J
the same weapon with corned powder produces 3000 J

Bringing in modern firearms* based on this wiki on Muzzle Energy,
.357 Magnum revolver with a 6" barrel 750 Joules
.44 Magnum 1400 Joules
Ak-47 (7.62 x 39mm) 2070 Joules
FN-FAL / M-60 (7.62 x 51mm) 3799 Joules
.50 Cal BMG 15000 Joules

*Of course this is all potentially different depending on the ammunition and the barrel length.

One of the interesting things about all this to me (if it is correct) is how powerful 16th Century muskets got, they were comparable in muzzle energy to an Ak-47! Of course bullets from modern firearms also retain their energy much longer than Musket or Arquebus balls do and modern bullets probably penetrate better. The stats on the armor make me wonder if a good 15th Century harness could stop an Ak-47 bullet... I wish I had some tempered steel armor that I could shoot at with an Ak-47 or a .357. (I wish I lived on my own island with Scarlet Johansson too.) Also, I wish I had a .50 caliber machine gun I shot one once in the army those things are bad ass.

But this does seems to support the opinion of [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Armourer-His-Craft-XVIth-Century/dp/0486258513"]Charles Ffoulkes[/ame] that regular plate armor is capable of resisting the firearms of the 15th and early 16th Century. It's only in the latter half of the 16th century that armor is seriously threatened by firearms. This is why Muskets were originally considered special armor-piercing weapons, used alongside smaller arquebus for a long time before the two weapons kind of merged together (the musket got smaller and gradually replaced the arquebus).

Of course even if your armor made you relatively safe from firearms, there was no armor in existence which protected you from cannon fire, and horses could only be partially armored at best (never on their legs for example) so the value of armor was in decline.

4363.jpg


But armor clearly had a great deal of value and looking at this data you can begin to understand why so much very high quality armor was produced during the Renaissance at so much expense in spite of the presence of large numbers of recurve bows, longbows, crossbows, halberds and firearms including pistols, arquebuses and hand-culverins. In some 15th Century battles tens of thousands of soldiers fought in heavy armor, to fight without armor protection in this time period meant almost certain death.

G.
 
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Votan

Explorer
Anyway my current personal OPINION** is that a longbow could not penetrate good quality plate armor*, but it could penetrate mail at most distances (depending on some other factors like how thick the aketon or gambeson is) and could penetrate thinner or more poorly made munitions-grade armor, and go around armor espc. on horses. Obviously massed archery was effective against armored heavy cavalry that couldn't get out of the way just as massed gunfire was well before the era when firearms were capable of directly defeating the best plate armor at long range.

Thank you.

I didn't intend to drag you into an area of controversy and was mostly interested in the question as to whether better penetration by bows could have delayed the adoption of firearms. But some of the results for high quality armor were slightly counter-intuitive so it was worth seeing where else my intuition might have failed.

It is a real challenge to go back and look at historical events (where the relevant details may have not been recorded) and guesswork is always involved. But I do not that close examination of events often shows my (personal) naive intuition not to be correct (I would have have bet on the Samurai versus the Europeans even if they had 5-6 times the numbers if melee was involved -- your cool account of the actual action suggests that was an absurd over-statement of the differences in training and equipment).
 

Galloglaich

First Post
Don't worry you didn't drag me anywhere I was just trying to forestall anyone getting annoyed at me over my opinion on longbows.

It's very tricky to generalize about any period of history. I'm not sure what the definitive answer is regarding Europeans vs. Samurai for example, I know a few anecdotes but the plural of anecdotes is not statistics :) I think there is more data to emerge on this subject, and there may never be a definitive answer about which style of warfare had more merit.

Like you I am constantly surprised by what I learn of history especially as accurate technical data about arms and armor and European Martial arts has gradually begun to emerge in the last few years. I don't think it's actually a failure of intuition though, I think it's a failure of our media and education systems to inform us even remotely accurately. And our own eagerness to accept simplistic generalizations and failure to think for ourselves. The bottome line is we want to make broad sweeping statements about say, the Middle Ages or the Renaissance, but it's very hard to do that. So instead of the very interesting reality those of us interested in these periods end up with Capitol One Barbarians and Medieval higgins boats.

With armor, the last word is not out yet, but the data which has emerged so far is surprising to me and quite throught provoking. One of the myths we English-speakers live with is the idea of historical progress, a legacy of Victorian thinking. So in order to feel right about the world we have to believe our ancestors were nastier, more brutish, and shorter* the further back we go in time. But when you look closer, you can clearly see, this was not necessarily the case.

G.

* that is a joke
 

Raven Crowking

First Post
One of the myths we English-speakers live with is the idea of historical progress, a legacy of Victorian thinking. So in order to feel right about the world we have to believe our ancestors were nastier, more brutish, and shorter* the further back we go in time. But when you look closer, you can clearly see, this was not necessarily the case.


Bears repeating.


RC
 



Matthew_

First Post
And our own eagerness to accept simplistic generalizations and failure to think for ourselves. The bottome line is we want to make broad sweeping statements about say, the Middle Ages or the Renaissance, but it's very hard to do that. So instead of the very interesting reality those of us interested in these periods end up with Capitol One Barbarians and Medieval higgins boats.
Yes, indeed, exactly this. We very often only see what we want to see, and only hear what we want to hear. Despite being reasonably well informed on the subject of medieval and ancient arms and armour, I find myself easily lapsing into inaccuracies and generalisations once I get some distance between myself and a specific area of investigation. Indeed, part of the appeal of some "revisionist" areas of history is that it tends to accord more strongly with my youthful preconceptions than the Monty Python-esque portrayals of the recent past, depictions that I feel arose partly in opposition to the glorification of brutality and violence.

Okay I guess on one level it's a doll or something, but this 1/6 scale miniature of a Crusader knight is pretty damn cool...
Ha! Turns out the comment I made in the Giant in the Playground thread would have been more appropriate here, given the preceding discussion...

"Next the guy has to build a 1:6 scale crossbow and shoot him with it!"

:lol:
 

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