History repeats itself

[Eldorian]

Who else finds this amusing?

I wish I was amused, but instead I'm mostly annoyed. To me it's obvious that 4e is going to take over the majority of the RPG market, just as 3e and 3.5e did before them. To those who say, "I will never play 4e!!!" I say, good, didn't want you in my game anyways. I've played a lot of games other than DnD, but I've always came back to DnD.

 

[cthulhu_duck]

OK, some of the details have changed. But the way gamers are reacting to the edition change is exactly the same as it was eight years ago.

For me and my group, it's not the same, and I imagine that's the case for others as well.

While I'll acknowledge that you maybe seen something different with the 2E->3E transition, please bear in mind that others had a different experience. And we're having a different experience now as well.

8 years ago, none of the groups I played in were playing D&D. One group in the nineties had a 2E campaign but that finished and none of us were keen to run another 2E campaign. The GM who introduced us to 3E tried to run BD&D at one point, wanting a system where PCs were scared of the city guard. We were playing Traveller, Alternity, Elric, and other systems on and off.

3E was exciting. Something new. Something different. Something familiar, but changed - and most of the changes were changes we felt were for the better. We could run the games we wanted to run and play in.

3E was something that many of us bought into. Then we bought into 3.5, despite a bad taste over what felt like buying the same game for a second time.

Now, I'm hearing a lot of rumor - and only the occasional piece of hard information out of Wizards, and some of that we later hear is no longer correct, leaving me wondering about the system we'll see mid year.

We're hearing and seeing a lot of flavor changes that don't make much sense to any of us. The changes to halflings had my group chuckling and calling them kender - with one group member suggesting that the real reason for their size change was the last line in the preview book: "And it means we can make halfling miniatures at 3/4 human size" to which I observed they'd already make miniatures at that scale, why change the game because of it?

Some of the flavor changes sound really interesting. But it's the ones we don't understand that leave us scratching our heads in puzzlement.

I have no doubt that 4E may be a good game mechanically. But my group isn't sold on the flavor changes, and that actively discourages us.

I'm also a Mac user. At one point I was keen on the idea of the DDI, since it would let me check out how 4E plays this year - but then the information came through that I won't be able to access the virtual game table and other PC only applications. That was disappointing.

Last year I bought about half a dozen D&D splatbooks, and a case of each of the D&D miniatures sets. At this point this year, I'm not looking on buying anything until I see how the game gets received and get to see the new system in print.

Comparing that with 3E - I had each of the books on preorder, and was quick to collect them from the FLGS when they arrived in store.

Maybe that is the same as it was for those who actively played 2E, but it's not the same for us.

 

[Reynard]

We're hearing and seeing a lot of flavor changes that don't make much sense to any of us. The changes to halflings had my group chuckling and calling them kender - with one group member suggesting that the real reason for their size change was the last line in the preview book: "And it means we can make halfling miniatures at 3/4 human size" to which I observed they'd already make miniatures at that scale, why change the game because of it?

I think this is important. 3E was launched as a return to the "good old days" of D&D. Despite mechanical changes, the implied setting and basic assumptions of the game weren't just retained but actually revitalized. 2E had become both incoherent and distant from what "core D&D" was considered to be. 3E looked a lot more like 1E than anything else.

4E isn't doing that. it is a reinvention. Much of the gnashing of teeth, I think, comes from that. There are few people who would argue aginst faster combat and smaller stat blocks and easier adventure design, and if those things were the extent of 4E's changes, there'd be a lot more positive consensus. But there's flavor issues and super-hero PCs and Des&Dev articles badwrongfunning some of the most venerable aspects of the game. It is a reinvention, rather than a revision, and that is going to cause a lot of consternation.

And while I finally realized that in order to decide to not play 4E I need to play it first, there's still things I read that get my teeth itching and rattle the cage on the Dire Grognard I have locked up inside.

 

[Lizard]

I think this is important. 3E was launched as a return to the "good old days" of D&D. Despite mechanical changes, the implied setting and basic assumptions of the game weren't just retained but actually revitalized. 2E had become both incoherent and distant from what "core D&D" was considered to be. 3E looked a lot more like 1E than anything else.

This is true. The media blitz for 3e said to me (a long-lapsed D&D player) "Remember how cool, fun, and exciting 1e was? 3e is going to be just as cool and fun -- but with rules for the 2000s, not the 1970s!"

The 4e media blitz says to me:"You know how much 3e SUCKED huge sweaty...things? Well, 4e won't suck HALF as bad! You thought 3e didn't suck? You were WRONG!"

This almost certainly isn't their intent, but it's what they're saying *to me*. They are (in part due to the OGL) determined to cut down on grognardism, and they're doing so by playing up the flaws of 3e, sending a very negative message to people who LIKE 3e, namely, "If you're having fun now...you won't be in 4e. Sucks to be you."

WOTC may have great game designers, but their marketing department is not doing its job.

 

[Mirtek]

This is true. The media blitz for 3e said to me (a long-lapsed D&D player) "Remember how cool, fun, and exciting 1e was? 3e is going to be just as cool and fun -- but with rules for the 2000s, not the 1970s!"

The 4e media blitz says to me:"You know how much 3e SUCKED huge sweaty...things? Well, 4e won't suck HALF as bad! You thought 3e didn't suck? You were WRONG!"

This almost certainly isn't their intent, but it's what they're saying *to me*. They are (in part due to the OGL) determined to cut down on grognardism, and they're doing so by playing up the flaws of 3e, sending a very negative message to people who LIKE 3e, namely, "If you're having fun now...you won't be in 4e. Sucks to be you."

WOTC may have great game designers, but their marketing department is not doing its job.

Exactly. There would certainly be a lot less negative feeling toward 4e if it wouldn't seem to be one of the selling points of 4e to constantly point out how much all prior D&D sucks

 

[Reynard]

WOTC may have great game designers, but their marketing department is not doing its job.

I agree 100% for the simple reason that seeing mechanics (the monster stat block) has me pulling back a little on the anti-4E track. While I don't much liek the pit fiend itself, i like the way monsters are presented, mechanically -- closer to 1E than 3E ever was. If there had just been another article like the Ecology of the Death Knight one, though, I am certain I would not be saying the same thing.

 

[BryonD]

Exactly. There would certainly be a lot less negative feeling toward 4e if it wouldn't seem to be one of the selling points of 4e to constantly point out how much all prior D&D sucks

Amen

 

[DandD]

I'll bite. Prior editions sucked. 3rd edition is fun to play as a Player, but less as a Gamemaster. And now, it became a convoluted rules-monstrosity, which is why it sucks too. 4th edition will suck in probably 7-9 years, when it will get to be a fat rules-heavy game with tons of rules that were added later on. Then will come 5th edition, which will hopefully be slimer, and I will like her.

Circle of life...

 

[FourthBear]

Then will come 5th edition, which will hopefully be slimer, and I will like her.

Wow, 5e will be the next Ghostbusters RPG?! This is better than Christmas!

 

[noretoc]

Exactly. There would certainly be a lot less negative feeling toward 4e if it wouldn't seem to be one of the selling points of 4e to constantly point out how much all prior D&D sucks

I havn't chimed in much on the 3rd-4th debate, but this line is so true. I remember when 3rd was being sold one of the talking point was "What is you wanted an orc that could was the size of an ogre. You would have to design a who different monster, 'Giant orc'. Now we have rules that work the same on all monsters. Once you have the rules down, increasing the orc to ogre size is the same as increasing the size of a wasp to a giant wasp. One system for everything, it will be so much simpler." I was all excited.
Now I hear. "If you want to increase the size of an orc, you have to follow compliacated rules on increasing strength, and hitdice, and figuring out CR that never works. In 4th, simply make a large orc and name it "Giant orc" it will be so much simpler."

This is why I have yet to be impressed with anything I hear.