D&D General Hit Point alternate to + CON mod?

[Aldarc]

I see two general conceptual problems with Con.

I would add a third: Con is too passive. It doesn't really do anything other than HP and Constitution (w/ Concentration) saves/checks. Players can actively use the other five stats to interact with the world, but they can't with Con.

2) Most modern fantasy tends to depict endurance as a function of mental willpower, rather than physical toughness. This is especially prevalent in anime and comic books, and also fantasy that derives from similar inspirations.

Which would also make sense for Concentration mechanics.

But if I could, I would also kill Wisdom and split it between Intelligence and Charisma/Willpower/Spirit. Then you could attach each of the main four classes to a primary stat: i.e., Strength (Fighter), Dexterity (Rogue), Intelligence (Wizard), and Spirit (Cleric).

 

[TwoSix]

I would add a third: Con is too passive. It doesn't really do anything other than HP and Constitution (w/ Concentration) saves/checks. Players can actively use the other five stats to interact with the world, but they can't with Con.

Sure. I think to make a Con a better stat, it needs to be recontextualized to have a more active use. I think it's easier if you think of the stats as demonstrating the capacity of the character, as opposed to modeling discrete actions. Like, I'd have no issues with modeling a character like Logan Ninefingers or Harry Dresden as high Con characters that can use Con to model their fighting or spellcasting prowess.

But if I could, I would also kill Wisdom and split it between Intelligence and Charisma/Willpower/Spirit. Then you could attach each of the main four classes to a primary stat: i.e., Strength (Fighter), Dexterity (Rogue), Intelligence (Wizard), and Spirit (Cleric).

I mean, I'm also a fan of Shadow of the Demon Lord, so I certainly like this approach. I just don't think any system that gets rid of stats in D&D is feasible for a D&D houserule, it's too intrinsic to how people think of D&D. I think the meaning and utility of the stats at their definitional borders can be up for debate, though.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Do you roll or average on lvlup?

Player's choice.

 

[jgsugden]

#1: Hit points are toughness. When you lose hps, your toughness is taxed and wanes.
#2: It is an abstraction. D&D is a story game, not a simulation. Trying to make HP loss more realistic just undercuts heroic stories. It does not make your stories more gritty, just more tedious, annoying and frustrating.
#3: It is not broke. If it ain't broke ...

 

[Laurefindel]

Recently I have participated in another futile debate about what are hit points. However, it got me thinking: if HP is luck, skill, exhausting, toughness all wrapped into one abstract package, why don't we reflect that in how we determine hit points. So my proposal, use all your stats! Basically you determine your hit point bonus gained at each level by:

• Option #1: Add all of your ability modifiers together and divide that total by 6 and round down.
• Option #2: Add one "physical" ability modifier and one "mental" ability modifier of your choice together, divide by 2, and round down.
• Option #3: Add two "physical" ability modifiers and two "mental" ability modifiers of your choice together, divide by 4, and round down.
• Option #4: Add any four ability modifiers of your choice together, divide by 4, and round down.

Just an idea I thought I would share.

I am torn on the matter of CON bonus to hit points.

On one side, I don't like that Constitution is never a stat you can dump, or even leave at average. All other stats can, depending on built, with variable consequences, but hp are universally important.

On the other side, Constitution contributes to few aspects of the game outside hp. The other big contribution is Con saves, which are important to the game, but D&D has few Con-based abilities, skills, and proficiencies compared to other stats. So removing that contribution has a huge impact...

Although this is a separate subject, most houserules aiming at reducing the total of hp in upper tiers of the game* (or progression of hp) end-up putting even more emphasis on Constitution, because the less hp you gain per level, the most Con contributes to your total.

In this regard, averaging Con bonus and class main ability bonus might be the best middle ground.

* I'm partial to CON score as hp at first level, then hit-die-no-Con at each level, but keep CON bonus on hitdice healing during rests.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The thing that kills me about these kinds of threads is that I honestly don't know why anyone actually cares what people's stats are!

CON is always the third-highest stat? So what! What is GAINED by someone having it be their 5th or 6th highest stat? Does their character suddenly become interesting now that they have a low CON? I don't think so. Yeah, they have a lower amount of HP and thus they fall down more often. Okay. Great. Does that make this particular PC now a compelling character? Not in the slightest! You want an interesting character... the player needs to imbue him or her with interesting character details that actually get roleplayed. And that has to come from the player and the player's creativity... NOT from whatever numbers appear on a character sheet.

I swear, it's like DMs are sitting around thinking to themselves "If ONLY I had a PC in my game whose three highest stats were STR, DEX, and INT! WOW would that make this character cool and original! Why can't I ever see that? How can I jerry-rig the game so that someone will have this stat combo?!?"

Well, guess what? Even if there was some build out there that this kind of array would be useful for... if your player is just a bland and disinterested die roller, that stat array ain't gonna matter. Dull players make dull characters regardless of the numbers written down on a sheet of paper. And people would be better served to remember that, rather than continually try and forcefeed these odd stat combos together in an effort to bring some life to their tables.

 

[Laurefindel]

The thing that kills me about these kinds of threads is that I honestly don't know why anyone actually cares what people's stats are!

CON is always the third-highest stat? So what! What is GAINED by someone having it be their 5th or 6th highest stat? Does their character suddenly become interesting now that they have a low CON? I don't think so. Yeah, they have a lower amount of HP and thus they fall down more often. Okay. Great. Does that make this particular PC now a compelling character? Not in the slightest! You want an interesting character... the player needs to imbue him or her with interesting character details that actually get roleplayed. And that has to come from the player and the player's creativity... NOT from whatever numbers appear on a character sheet.

I swear, it's like DMs are sitting around thinking to themselves "If ONLY I had a PC in my game whose three highest stats were STR, DEX, and INT! WOW would that make this character cool and original! Why can't I ever see that? How can I jerry-rig the game so that someone will have this stat combo?!?"

Well, guess what? Even if there was some build out there that this kind of array would be useful for... if your player is just a bland and disinterested die roller, that stat array ain't gonna matter. Dull players make dull characters regardless of the numbers written down on a sheet of paper. And people would be better served to remember that, rather than continually try and forcefeed these odd stat combos together in an effort to bring some life to their tables.

Personally, it comes from a few character concepts where I would have prioritized WIS, CHA, INT (or whatever) but felt compelled to put a high-ish score in CON just not to fall behind.

I had a bard where I left STR and CON as the lowest scores, and regretted it badly.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Personally, it comes from a few character concepts where I would have prioritized WIS, CHA, INT (or whatever) but felt compelled to put a high-ish score in CON just not to fall behind.

I had a bard where I left STR and CON as the lowest scores, and regretted it badly.

Then I guess you didn't really want to play this concept you had then? If your concept was a bard that was incredibly weak physically, why would you regret it when in fact your character actually was weak physically? What exactly would be the point of saying your character had poor health (emblematic by putting a low number in CON)... but statistically you wanted your HP based on some other stat so that you didn't actually have to PLAY someone with poor health because the game mechanics meant you fell unconscious too often?

At that point... you might as well just roleplay your character's identity in whatever manner you want, regardless of what the stats are. If you had wanted to play a highly intelligent, incredibly wise, and exceedingly charismatic character.... you could do that even if you end up deciding to put one of those mental stats into 4th position so that you could bump up your CON merely for game mechanic combat sake. No one would care. And no one would question you by asking "Why are you playing your character so smart when he only has a +1 INT mod?" No one knows or can say how a +1 INT mod character plays compared to a +2 INT mod character, so what your stats are doesn't actually matter. How you play your character is how you play your character regardless of the numbers on your sheet.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Is it? There are games with attributes other than D&D's that get along just fine and don't have the sort of problems you are predicting here. It's likely that if Gygax had used only four or five attributes, people would be arguing in favor of those instead of the hegemonic six.

Nope.
I have played games without Con and don't like it for the aforementioned reason.
You could do away with con, but you need to do more work than simply merging it with str.
Concentration checks just might be better as a willpower (wisdom) check.
Hitpoints totally decoupled from attributes also makes more sense...
I really don't see any reason to put it all under str.

 

[Aldarc]

Nope.
I have played games without Con and don't like it for the aforementioned reason.
You could do away with con, but you need to do more work than simply merging it with str.
Concentration checks just might be better as a willpower (wisdom) check.
Hitpoints totally decoupled from attributes also makes more sense...
I really don't see any reason to put it all under str.

So because it doesn't work for you, it couldn't possibly work or make sense for anyone else?