D&D General Hit Point alternate to + CON mod?

[Campbell]

Honestly the typical ability score dynamics (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution) do a rather poor job of modeling human athleticism. The real trade off is between power (which includes speed and agility) and muscular endurance. The more you develop a particular muscle the more expensive it is to use it and more capacity you have power. Roleplaying games generally do a very poor job of portraying athleticism, particularly making endurance meaningful and portraying the importance of proper recovery. It's so weird to me as a professional software engineer and amateur power lifter that fighters are portrayed as energizer bunnies while wizards are the ones who become quickly taxed.

Generally in my experience with combat sports (wrestling, jiujitsu, kick boxing) endurance does not meaningfully reduce your chance of injuries. It does mean you can exert yourself longer, but a kick to the face is a kick to the face.

 

[Don Durito]

One thing I had contemplated was having Strength add to hit-points, but having Con add to Hit Dice recovery still. This might need some adjustments of hit dice though as it would generally mean more hit points for strength based melee classes.

Another option is to base HP off the lowest of Str or Con.

 

[dave2008]

Out of curiosity, why not? I mean the factor CON represents is certainly there. IMO the bulk of HD is the skill factor that gets added in with every level.

Well, the whole point of this thread was the thought that CON shouldn't be the determining factor in your HP. That HP is in fact a combination of all of your ability scores. I realize with your proposal it is only a major factor at first level, but that just seems unnecessary to me.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Well, the whole point of this thread was the thought that CON shouldn't be the determining factor in your HP. That HP is in fact a combination of all of your ability scores. I realize with your proposal it is only a major factor at first level, but that just seems unnecessary to me.

Okay, but considering your OP I thought the point was more that CON shouldn't be the only factor.

I understand the argument about it not being the only factor because as most people know CON ends up being your 2nd or 3rd best score more often than not due to the desire for high HP. However, since part of the abstract nature of HP does include the ability to take the pain, endurance, or whatever--which CON represents IMO--it should continue to be a contributing factor at least. With my proposal about using all the scores at level 1, CON is not a "major factor" really, it is just as important over all as all the other ability scores towards contributing to HP.

FWIW, there is enough differentiation between STR and CON to my mind that I oppose the idea of merging them as some people suggest, so I would keep CON as its own thing. shrug

 

[dave2008]

Okay, but considering your OP I thought the point was more that CON shouldn't be the only factor.

I understand the argument about it not being the only factor because as most people know CON ends up being your 2nd or 3rd best score more often than not due to the desire for high HP. However, since part of the abstract nature of HP does include the ability to take the pain, endurance, or whatever--which CON represents IMO--it should continue to be a contributing factor at least. With my proposal about using all the scores at level 1, CON is not a "major factor" really, it is just as important over all as all the other ability scores towards contributing to HP.

Let me clarify, the proposal was really that all abilities should be an equal factor, since HP represents everything. I don't mind if CON is part of it, but I was proposing that it shouldn't be a bigger part than STR or INT or CHA. That is the idea I find interesting at the moment, Also, it is only an idea for discussion, not saying this is what we will do or that it is a great idea for the game as it is currently constructed.

FWIW, there is enough differentiation between STR and CON to my mind that I oppose the idea of merging them as some people suggest, so I would keep CON as its own thing. shrug

I agree, no merging Con and STR for me.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I don't mind if CON is part of it, but I was proposing that it shouldn't be a bigger part than STR or INT or CHA. That is the idea I find interesting at the moment

OK, I guess that is why I was confused: what I am suggesting makes all ability scores equal contributors (potentially) with each modifier adding its value precisely because of the abstract HP concept. I am feeling like we are talking past each other LOL.

So, I am not certain why you wrote:

I realize with your proposal it is only a major factor at first level

Unless you are more referring to the SW d20 "Wound Points" concept? I don't see that as a big difference from your additional BHP (unless I am missing something?).

 

[Wasteland Knight]

Step 1. Delete Constitution
Step 2. Constitution Saves Are Now Strength Saves.
Step 3. There Is No Bonus to HP.

This really seems like the end game of this thread. I've always thought CON was the "hp" stat to provide another choice in character creating. Some folks don't want CON for hp because hey, why use CON when you can use some other prime stat? Even more optimization possibilities then it seems. So everyone gets to use whatever stat for bonus hp, leading to hp inflation, then basically just go back to regular hp.

D&D is so abstract there really is minimal tie in with "the real world". I think CON for hp and certain saves is based slightly on "reality" but mostly has become an artifact of the game.

Under the lens of "reality" or "common sense" a lot of D&D simply falls apart. Which is fine.

I don't play D&D for any sort of realistic simulation. I play it because it's fun. Who cares if my high level Fighter can take more physical punishment than a couple of full grown elephants before he falls unconscious?

I think the better path is just to accept most of D&D is based on rules mechanics and then there's "flavor text" applied.

 

[Wasteland Knight]

Recently I have participated in another futile debate about what are hit points.

There's a reason that's a futile debate. Because HP aren't really anything but a game construct.

 

[dave2008]

Unless you are more referring to the SW d20 "Wound Points" concept? I don't see that as a big difference from your additional BHP (unless I am missing something?).

Maybe I read to fast. I thought you suggested CON score + adding all the modifiers as starting HP. If that is not what you said, then completely disregard what I wrote!

 

[DND_Reborn]

Maybe I read to fast. I thought you suggested CON score + adding all the modifiers as starting HP. If that is not what you said, then completely disregard what I wrote!

That explains my confusion then. You were referring to this:

Start with HP equal to your CON score (or max HD, your choice depending on your game style) and add all your ability score modifiers to the total. When you level up, you just get HD. If an ability score modifier increases, your HP increase by the same amount (typically, +1 or 2).

The suggestion of CON score was for people who want the "meat" aspect more at level 1. Personally, my preference is for max HD + total of ability score modifiers so I wasn't thinking of mentioning CON score.

Yeah, if you used CON score, you would only add the other ability score modifiers to it.

Sorry for the mix-up.