D&D 5E Hit Point Maximum Damage House-Rules

[DND_Reborn]

So, in my quest to continue to revamp 5E without end, I am considering a new house-rule. The idea is that reducing your hit point maximum represents damage that you failed to avoid for whatever reason. Of course, when your hit point maximum is lower, even if you get healed "fully", you aren't operating in top form (so to say).

Below are a couple variations/options:

1. Whenever you fail a saving throw, in addition to taking damage to your hit points, half the damage is also applied to your hit point maximum.
2. Whenever you fail a saving throw, damage is applied to your hit point maximum instead of your hit points.
3. Whenever you take damage from an attack you were unaware of, damage is applied to your hit point maximum instead of your hit points.
4. Hazard damage (such as falling) is applied to your hit point maximum instead of your hit points. (This could easily include a saving throw, moving it up to a subset of #1 or #2 above.)
5. (ADDED) Damage from a critical hit has half the damage applied to hit point maximum in addition to the full amount reducing hit points.

Along with this would be a new rule for healing hit point maximum, instead of automatically recovering it all on a long rest... But I haven't decided on this yet.

So, a few examples. You have 50 hit points (and are at maximum)n for each, and you are fully healed prior to taking damage.

#1. You are hit by a fireball for average 28 damage and fail the saving throw. Your hit point maximum is reduced by half the damage, to 36 (50-14), and your hit points by the full amount, to 22 hit points (50-28). So, you have 22 / 36.

#2. You are hit by a fireball for average 28 damage and fail the saving throw. Your hit point maximum is reduced by 28 points to 22 (50-28). Since your current hit points cannot exceed your hit point maximum (without temporary hit points, that is), your hit points are also reduced by 28 to 22.
Note: If you were already injured and your current hit points were at 15 (for example), they would not be reduced further with this option.

#3. You are surprised by a rogue sneak attacking you for 18 damage. Your hit point maximum is reduced to 32 (50-18), and (as #2) your current hit points would be reduced to your current hit point maximum of 32 as well.

#4. You fall 30 feet while scaling a cliff and take 11 damage. Your hit point maximum is reduced to 39 (50-11) and your current hit points as well (to 39).

So, that's it. Thoughts?

 

[Maxperson]

So, in my quest to continue to revamp 5E without end, I am considering a new house-rule. The idea is that reducing your hit point maximum represents damage that you failed to avoid for whatever reason. Of course, when your hit point maximum is lower, even if you get healed "fully", you aren't operating in top form (so to say).

Below are a couple variations/options:

1. Whenever you fail a saving throw, in addition to taking damage to your hit points, half the damage is also applied to your hit point maximum.
2. Whenever you fail a saving throw, damage is applied to your hit point maximum instead of your hit points.
3. Whenever you take damage from an attack you were unaware of, damage is applied to your hit point maximum instead of your hit points.
4. Hazard damage (such as falling) is applied to your hit point maximum instead of your hit points. (This could easily include a saving throw, moving it up to a subset of #1 or #2 above.)

Along with this would be a new rule for healing hit point maximum, instead of automatically recovering it all on a long rest... But I haven't decided on this yet.

So, a few examples. You have 50 hit points (and are at maximum)n for each, and you are fully healed prior to taking damage.

#1. You are hit by a fireball for average 28 damage and fail the saving throw. Your hit point maximum is reduced by half the damage, to 36 (50-14), and your hit points by the full amount, to 22 hit points (50-28). So, you have 22 / 36.

#2. You are hit by a fireball for average 28 damage and fail the saving throw. Your hit point maximum is reduced by 28 points to 22 (50-28). Since your current hit points cannot exceed your hit point maximum (without temporary hit points, that is), your hit points are also reduced by 28 to 22.
Note: If you were already injured and your current hit points were at 15 (for example), they would not be reduced further with this option.

#3. You are surprised by a rogue sneak attacking you for 18 damage. Your hit point maximum is reduced to 32 (50-18), and (as #2) your current hit points would be reduced to your current hit point maximum of 32 as well.

#4. You fall 30 feet while scaling a cliff and take 11 damage. Your hit point maximum is reduced to 39 (50-11) and your current hit points as well (to 39).

So, that's it. Thoughts?

I like it. I prefer #1 to #2 with regard to saves. A fireball should inflict damage even if you are hurt, not just reduce maximum hit points. #3 and #4 can also be applied at the same time.

You're going to need to provide some new mechanism for healing the maximum damage. It can't be just an overnight rest or you are going to ultra incentivising the 5 minute work day to recover those lost hit points. Whatever method you choose, stopping to rest for a night or multiple days in a row shouldn't fix it.

You might allow recovery via hit dice expended. Either through a roll or maybe a flat 5 max hit points restored per hit die. Then you'd just have to tweak the hit die recover rules to keep rests under control.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I like it. I prefer #1 to #2 with regard to saves. A fireball should inflict damage even if you are hurt, not just reduce maximum hit points. #3 and #4 can also be applied at the same time.

So, are you thinking a simpler, more universal, rule would simply be normal damage is applied to your hit points and half is also applied to your hit point maximum?

You're going to need to provide some new mechanism for healing the maximum damage. It can't be just an overnight rest or you are going to ultra incentivising the 5 minute work day to recover those lost hit points. Whatever method you choose, stopping to rest for a night or multiple days in a row shouldn't fix it.

Yes, recovering hit point maximum would be much harder in what I am envisioning.

 

[Maxperson]

So, are you thinking a simpler, more universal, rule would simply be normal damage is applied to your hit points and half is also applied to your hit point maximum?

That's absolutely simpler, and simpler can be better. You might try a few fights with your players using both rules and see which flows better.

Yes, recovering hit point maximum would be much harder in what I am envisioning.

You'll have to be very careful when planning multiple encounters. And the CR ratings will be much less useful, since the added loss of maximum hit points will have much greater impact than the current loss of resource system. Since CR is going to be much less useful for gauging encounters, I'd go with a milestone leveling system. That way you don't have to create a completely new XP calculating system on top of it all.

 

[Blue]

This is a really interesting take. It will give quite a different feel from the normal attrition-based game, but that can really be a good thing.

A couple of other options. Playing off @Maxperson 's good idea of everything doing both, perhaps the result of the dice reduce your normal, and the number of dice reduce your max. But if you pair that with a slow recovery, not just coming back from HD, healing magic, or a long rest, and it can drastically change the feel, in a way that will change the approach to adventures.

An off idea may also be to allow spending more HD that you have, but those will also impact your max HP to a degree, so you aren't getting as much back and really are lowering your long term cap for a push right now of not dropping.

 

[DND_Reborn]

This is a really interesting take. It will give quite a different feel from the normal attrition-based game, but that can really be a good thing.

Thanks. It is something I have been playing around with for a LONG time, using hit point maximum...

The idea is a derivative of the vitality / wounds system of d20 SW. I liked the idea that:

1. critical damage (formerly "hit") goes directly to "wounds"-- or in the case of 5E, since I didn't want to use Constitution, I figured maximum hit points. Using the options in the OP, this could be half the damage to hit point maximum maybe?
2. overflow damage when you go to 0 hit points would also go to hit point maximum instead of being lost.

#2 accurately represents the RAW idea that remaining damage equal to your hit point maximum is instant death.

With the ideas in the OP, that would hold true: if your hit point maximum reaches 0, you die.

A couple of other options. Playing off @Maxperson 's good idea of everything doing both, perhaps the result of the dice reduce your normal, and the number of dice reduce your max. But if you pair that with a slow recovery, not just coming back from HD, healing magic, or a long rest, and it can drastically change the feel, in a way that will change the approach to adventures.

An off idea may also be to allow spending more HD that you have, but those will also impact your max HP to a degree, so you aren't getting as much back and really are lowering your long term cap for a push right now of not dropping.

Yeah, something like this might work as well.

At this point, what I want to do first is apply damage to hit points and half to hit point maximum, but only on failed saves, unexpected attacks, and hazard damage.

 

[Maxperson]

At this point, what I want to do first is apply damage to hit points and half to hit point maximum, but only on failed saves, unexpected attacks, and hazard damage.

I would include critical hits as well.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I would include critical hits as well.

We've actually already been do this (after a fashion) which is why I never included it in the OP, but I've updated it to include it.

 

[Blue]

I've seen reduction to HP max done two ways, curious which way you are applying it.

A PC had 50 maximum HPs and currently is down 10 to 40 HPs. They take 5 points off their maximum reducing it to 45. Do their current HPs stay the same because it's still lower than max HPs, or do you track "they are down 10" and stay with the same damage taken so it also reduces their current HPs to 35?

 

[dave2008]

I like the general idea. I will have to think about as a possible simplification / revision of our bloodied hit point rules. If so, I would figure DR into it as well. Generally though it would make it damage on a crit or critcial failure of a saving throw. Or revise to the PF2 version of +10 / -10 for crit success / fail