D&D General Hit Points. Did 3.0 Or 3.5 Get it Right?

[UngeheuerLich]

Here lately in 5E as a player, I feel like I'm armed with a wiffle bat.

Most frustratingly, in our latest adventure it was a stealth mission and we botched group sneaking past a guard. With the way 5E hit points are set up there was no way to dispense with the (CR appropriate) guard before he could raise the alarm - our attempt to use an upped-level sleep spell (at 3rd level) failed miserably and even the rogue assassin's surprise sneak attack couldn't take him down in one shot.

At times, the games focus on "epic combat, all the time, every time" grinds my gears and plays against a good story moment.

I think some NPCs are not statted correctly.
Guards and thugs have way too much hp. I really have no problem with monsters and animals having some bloated hit points. But I'd like my NPCs slightly harder to hit but with HP comparable to PCs.
I therefor often use bandids or even commoners when statting low priority guards.

 

[Minigiant]

I think some NPCs are not statted correctly.
Guards and thugs have way too much hp. I really have no problem with monsters and animals having some bloated hit points. But I'd like my NPCs slightly harder to hit but with HP comparable to PCs.
I therefor often use bandids or even commoners when statting low priority guards.

D&D is inconsistent with it's lore and stats.

What is the human guard or orc warrior stat block?

A guard or orc who never fought more than a commoner?
A guard or orc who is a member of a skrimish between orcs and guards?
A guard or orc who is a veteran of many battles between orcs and guards?

Well that guard whose job is to stand in from of a door for hours should be a <10 HP mook whose purpose is to call others, not fight.

 

[Zardnaar]

Fireball in 3.Xe was designed for a type of game that was no longer the majority of popularity when 3e came out: random or on the fly dungeons with random/otf monsters

Fireball was for when a DM said "Surprise. You made a bunch of noise so 3d6 orcs!"
A squad of 11-20 1st level orcs plus 2 3rd-level sergants and 1 leader orc of 3rd-6th level.
A 5th-6th level wizard's fireball kill all the regular orcs, half the sergants, and takes the leader down to 12hp.

The question is now, how many times has a DM thrown 20 orcs at you at once since 2000?

Occasionally.

3.5 fireball was still a B tier spell and 5d6 is generally the minimum damage.

Save or sucks are still better in 5E as well eg hypnotic patter.

Even in 5E you don't really see 20 orcs it's more like 6 CR 1s or 2s and a CR 5 or whatever level 8ish.

I woukd argue its gotten worse every edition. 5E one might be better than the 4E version which had anemic damage and buckets of hp and minions got evasion iirc.

3E 5d6 fireball compares comparatively well to 5E 8d6 obe. Remember 3.5 one scales for free though and at 6d6 -10d6 it's no contest imho.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think some NPCs are not statted correctly.
Guards and thugs have way too much hp. I really have no problem with monsters and animals having some bloated hit points. But I'd like my NPCs slightly harder to hit but with HP comparable to PCs.
I therefor often use bandids or even commoners when statting low priority guards.

My favorite is Assassins who can't assassinate unless DM uses CR 1/8 to 1/2.

Ones pushing it to one shot at level 1-5.

 

[Minigiant]

Occasionally.

3.5 fireball was still a B tier spell and 5d6 is generally the minimum damage.

Save or sucks are still better in 5E as well eg hypnotic patter.

Even in 5E you don't really see 20 orcs it's more like 6 CR 1s or 2s and a CR 5 or whatever level 8ish.

I woukd argue its gotten worse every edition. 5E one might be better than the 4E version which had anemic damage and buckets of hp and minions got evasion iirc.

3E 5d6 fireball compares comparatively well to 5E 8d6 obe. Remember 3.5 one scales for free though and at 6d6 -10d6 it's no contest imho.

Fireball is a A tier spell.... for what it'sused for.
Fireball was best when DM threw 8-20 enemies at you.
But DMs stopped doing that in ordered to run easier combat or trickier monsters.
THAT is why Save or Suck spells got popular. A single target save or suck spell is when facing one foe or a boss with a handful of chumps.

But if 8 guys come at you in 4 directions, most SoS spells suck.

But running 8 guys coming at 4 directions with each side having a environmental hazard or special equipment takes a big drain on the brain.

Batman Wizards and CODzillas resulted because players could rely on DMs running smaller sets of tactics because some tactics are harder to run.


This is why 4e introduced minions, elites, and solos. To make running different monster setups and HP spreads easier.

 

[Zardnaar]

Fireball is a A tier spell.... for what it'sused for.
Fireball was best when DM threw 8-20 enemies at you.
But DMs stopped doing that in ordered to run easier combat or trickier monsters.
THAT is why Save or Suck spells got popular. A single target save or suck spell is when facing one foe or a boss with a handful of chumps.

But if 8 guys come at you in 4 directions, most SoS spells suck.

But running 8 guys coming at 4 directions with each side having a environmental hazard or special equipment takes a big drain on the brain.

Batman Wizards and CODzillas resulted because players could rely on DMs running smaller sets of tactics because some tactics are harder to run.


This is why 4e introduced minions, elites, and solos. To make running different monster setups and HP spreads easier.

Erm 4E basically isn't do anything ew. A minion in prec4E is just those fodder types.

And they do turn up in numbers in official adventures. Vague recollections of lvl 10 wizard circa 2002.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Erm 4E basically isn't do anything ew.

New For D&D.

They:

• codified the narrative and tactical use of the concept.
• created a mechanic that guaranteed the monster died in one blow without dying from being 'missed'.
• allowed such creatures to still reasonably contribute to the damage calculation.
• created a template that allows this to be quickly applied to all monsters rather than relying on wolves and goblins in various reskinned forms.
• annoyed people who took statblocks to be literal biological fact.

 

[Zardnaar]

New For D&D.

They:

• codified the narrative and tactical use of the concept.
• created a mechanic that guaranteed the monster died in one blow without dying from being 'missed'.
• allowed such creatures to still reasonably contribute to the damage calculation.
• created a template that allows this to be quickly applied to all monsters rather than relying on wolves and goblins in various reskinned forms.
• annoyed people who took statblocks to be literal biological fact.

Most of that existed conceptually as far back as the 80s.

4E stuck a label on it.

Old Dungeon magazines and published adventures might throw hordes of kobold at you or whatever.

Some of the clever adventures they were still threatening. Otherwise the fighters could have 10 attacks or whatever.

Tuckers kobold is near legendary but adventures such as Out of the Ashes had suicidal kobold brigade armed with beads from a necklace of fireballs.

In 1989.

Concept was there long before 4E. Tallow Deep did something similar with Goblins, one of my own 90s designs used the spell Righteous Wrath of the Faithful +3 to hit and damage. 1d8 hp, extra attack.

That was circa 1998.

And I lived in small town NZ with a few Dungeon magazines to learn from.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Most of that existed conceptually as far back as the 80s.

4E stuck a label on it.

And codified it. Which is important when as we'll see be low the concept was a lose bag of barely collected and largely unimplemented concepts.

Old Dungeon magazines and published adventures might throw hordes of kobold at you or whatever.

Hordes of kobolds that aren't guaranteed to go down if you roll poorly.

Some of the clever adventures they were still threatening. Otherwise the fighters could have 10 attacks or whatever.

Tuckers kobold is near legendary but adventures such as Out of the Ashes had suicidal kobold brigade armed with beads from a necklace of fireballs.

A gimmick that involved convoluted maneuvers by the DM actively constructing a deathtrap dungeon to make the situation hyper lethal is so far from the concept of minion that light will take strange eons to reach one from the other.

Concept was there long before 4E. Tallow Deep did something similar with Goblins, one of my own 90s designs used the spell Righteous Wrath of the Faithful +3 to hit and damage. 1d8 hp, extra attack.

Oh good, they had a one in eight chance of being a fragment of what a minion actually is and works like.

 

[Zardnaar]

And codified it. Which is important when as we'll see be low the concept was a lose bag of barely collected and largely unimplemented concepts.


Hordes of kobolds that aren't guaranteed to go down if you roll poorly.


A gimmick that involved convoluted maneuvers by the DM actively constructing a deathtrap dungeon to make the situation hyper lethal is so far from the concept of minion that light will take strange eons to reach one from the other.

Oh good, they had a one in eight chance of being a fragment of what a minion actually is and works like.

I said same role minions weren't all that and were kinda stupid as well.

Kinda fun early on with kobold but they were a contributing factor to the game ending at level 7 (xp to 8 but giving up was preferred over level up).