Hits, misses and hit point loss in REH's Conan

[pemerton]

Here are some passages from The Phoenix on the Sword:

The king took Ascalante's point in his left arm, and the outlaw barely saved his life by ducking and springing backward from the swinging ax. . . .

Ascalante leaped like a wolf, halted almost in midair with incredible quickness and fell prostrate to avoid the death which was hissing toward him. He frantically whirled his feet out of the way and rolled clear as Conan recovered from his missed blow and struck again. This time the ax sank inches deep into the polished floor close to Ascalante's revolving legs.​

Clearly when Conan is stabbed by Ascalante, he has (in D&D terms) been hit and suffered hit point loss.

But what about when Ascalante ducks and springs backward, then falls prostrate, and then whirls his feet out of the way?

In the fiction this is Conan missing. But mechanically, what is going on? Is Conan missing - or hitting, and causing Ascalante to lose hit points, but not delivering fatal damage?

I think the latter, because otherwise Ascalante would - like everyone else in Conan except for Conan! - be a one-hit kill. And Conan would be rolling far too many 1s on his d20!

But I'm curious about other opinions. After all, the interpretation of "hit", "miss", "damage" and "healing" seems to be one of the things that is causing a lot of angst for D&Dnext dicsussions.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Here are some passages from The Phoenix on the Sword:

The king took Ascalante's point in his left arm, and the outlaw barely saved his life by ducking and springing backward from the swinging ax. . . .

Ascalante leaped like a wolf, halted almost in midair with incredible quickness and fell prostrate to avoid the death which was hissing toward him. He frantically whirled his feet out of the way and rolled clear as Conan recovered from his missed blow and struck again. This time the ax sank inches deep into the polished floor close to Ascalante's revolving legs.​

Clearly when Conan is stabbed by Ascalante, he has (in D&D terms) been hit and suffered hit point loss.

But what about when Ascalante ducks and springs backward, then falls prostrate, and then whirls his feet out of the way?

In the fiction this is Conan missing. But mechanically, what is going on? Is Conan missing - or hitting, and causing Ascalante to lose hit points, but not delivering fatal damage?

I think the latter, because otherwise Ascalante would - like everyone else in Conan except for Conan! - be a one-hit kill. And Conan would be rolling far too many 1s on his d20!

But I'm curious about other opinions. After all, the interpretation of "hit", "miss", "damage" and "healing" seems to be one of the things that is causing a lot of angst for D&Dnext dicsussions.

In my game this would be a miss.

People have different preferences about this stuff though.

 

[Klaus]

Here are some passages from The Phoenix on the Sword:

The king took Ascalante's point in his left arm, and the outlaw barely saved his life by ducking and springing backward from the swinging ax. . . .

Ascalante leaped like a wolf, halted almost in midair with incredible quickness and fell prostrate to avoid the death which was hissing toward him. He frantically whirled his feet out of the way and rolled clear as Conan recovered from his missed blow and struck again. This time the ax sank inches deep into the polished floor close to Ascalante's revolving legs.​

Clearly when Conan is stabbed by Ascalante, he has (in D&D terms) been hit and suffered hit point loss.

But what about when Ascalante ducks and springs backward, then falls prostrate, and then whirls his feet out of the way?

In the fiction this is Conan missing. But mechanically, what is going on? Is Conan missing - or hitting, and causing Ascalante to lose hit points, but not delivering fatal damage?

I think the latter, because otherwise Ascalante would - like everyone else in Conan except for Conan! - be a one-hit kill. And Conan would be rolling far too many 1s on his d20!

But I'm curious about other opinions. After all, the interpretation of "hit", "miss", "damage" and "healing" seems to be one of the things that is causing a lot of angst for D&Dnext dicsussions.

I prefer considering it a hit that failed to drop the target to 0hp. Unless the attack delivers something like poison or some other contact-only effect on a hit.

For a long time, hit points have been representative of a character's ability to turn a solid hit into a near-miss (I believe this is even spelled out in 1e and 2e). For monsters, hp are a measure of their overall toughness (so yes, you are hitting that dragon again and again, to little effect).

 

[Minigiant]

I have always considered a dodge or parry as half hit points and half Dexterity modifier. If the character is not known for being dextrous or fast (does not have a positive Dex mod), then all their dodges and parries are HP.

 

[BryonD]

For me it depends.

The short answer is that I really like "all of the above".
I don't often describe a game mechanics "hit" as a narrative failure to make contact because the character completely avoided an otherwise deadly blow. But I do frequently describe a slight variation of that in which a "hit" is described as little more than a glancing blow. [take X points damage as you desperately spin aside] And that usually leaves the finer details of whether the damage was an expression of exertion or completely a matter of spent karma up to the player's imagination.

But I can think of a handful of cases in which a character built on a mobility concept has been hit and I described it pretty much exactly as you suggest here: a total miss because of the character's ability to force it into being a miss. I like the concept that characters are unaware that they are characters, and unaware that they have abilities, AC, HP, etc. They just know they have skills and tools for getting the job done. Blurring the distinction of when does my really high AC end and my pool of HP begin helps enhance that.

So, in the end, this is why I find it mandatory for a system to have a clear flexibility in how HP are interpreted from instant to instant.

All of the above

Though I also wouldn't hesitate to take artistic license with a miss and simply describe it as a really cool miss. And THAT happens significantly more often.

 

[Greatwyrm]

But mechanically, what is going on?

DM fiat.

 

[RangerWickett]

Note that it's certainly possible to create a balanced and cinematic combat system with hit points that distinctly represent physical damage. Warhammer 40k Rogue Trader does it pretty well.

I attack, and if my attack is on target (I roll under my Weapon Skill rating on a d%), you can dodge (try to roll under your Dodge skill on a d%, but only once per round). If you don't dodge, I roll damage. Armor soaks damage. Most people have, like, 15 HP to start with, and most weapons do 1d10 or 2d10 damage.

 

[SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS]

Another hit point discussion? To me hit points are simply 'plot armor' in any edition, a metagaming construct that can be interpreted in game in any way a player want.

 

[BryonD]

Another hit point discussion? To me hit points are simply 'plot armor' in any edition, a metagaming construct that can be interpreted in game in any way a player want.

This is true.

But I think the bulk of the HP conversation is really a bit of misdirection on the surge mechanic conversation. Which is really a distinct issue.

 

[Andor]

You know the flip side that most people ignore when narrating hp loss as a near miss, are D&Ds armour rules.

In 3e if my knight has a 10 dex and full plate that brings his ac to 18 then rules as written an attack of 1-9 is a clean miss, 10-17 bounces of his iron waistcoat and 18 or above hits and does damage.

It is strange to me that the narrative damage school of HP would claim that a 17 hit but was absorbed by armour, yet an 18 was a miss that somehow was more taxing than a mace to the gibblets.

Reinterpret the numbers to suit your favorite D&D edition.

As for REH he was not narrating a D&D reality with large HP totals, he was narrating life as it was familiar to him where a stab wound puts most men out of a fight.