Hits, misses and hit point loss in REH's Conan

[Andor]

Sometimes I feel so alone...

Systems are not meaningless, the rules represent things.

Constitution is, explicitly, toughness. It adds to HP. Ergo HP are also a form of toughness.

Bigger weapons do bigger damage. Getting hit with a baseball bat hurts more than getting hit with a drumstick, egro damge is pain.

AC represents the difficulty of hurting someone.

Dodging makes it difficult to hurt someone, Dex is speed and agility, Dex adds to AC. Armour makes it difficult to hurt someone, Armour adds to AC.

It is extremely clear what Con and Dex and armour and HP mean in D&D, there is honestly no confusion. It's just that some people don't like what they all mean so they try to pretend otherwise.

"Well clearly no one could actually survive that so a hit isn't a hit, it's a miss." "So when I fell off that 400' cliff last week and didn't die, did I miss the ground? Do I have a fly speed now? Douglas Adams thinks I should." "Errr... no, you landed on pillows." "I thought you described it as jagged rocks, huh. Well what about when I spent half an hour in a blazing building the week before?" "Umm... you must have been in a clear pocket." "You described it as an inferno. You made my items make saving throws. Does this mean you've changed you mind and I can have my cloak and scrolls back? What about my hair?" "Damn!"

Yes, you absolutely can change all this by changing the rules. But it won't bear much resemblence to classic D&D if you do, and given the goals of 5e, I don't expect it to happen. Frankly armour as DR systems make more sense to me than the D&D system, but in play that becomes problematic as DR imbalance between characters is much, much worse than HP imbalance. I just finished a Black Crusade campaign and the GM was ripping out his hair because anything that did enough damage to inflict a single hp on a Chaos Space Marine was also enough to one-shot kill any of the human party members.

 

[LostSoul]

I think D&D combat is abstract (detailed or not), and that means that different people can narrate the same mechanical outcome in different ways. I think that's a feature of the game.

Bigger weapons do bigger damage. Getting hit with a baseball bat hurts more than getting hit with a drumstick, egro damge is pain.

It depends where and how that drumstick hits you. A bat jammed into your eye might break your bones but a drumstick there could be worse. That is probably the idea behind 1d6 damage for all weapons. Which makes more sense the more abstract combat is.

 

[Libramarian]

Sometimes I feel so alone...

Pffft interpreting a hit as a miss is nothing, one time my friends and I closed our eyes and listened to the random staccato of raindrops falling on cement and imagined a D&D game to go along with the pattern.

Beat that plebeian trad gamers.

 

[Argyle King]

Here are some passages from The Phoenix on the Sword:

The king took Ascalante's point in his left arm, and the outlaw barely saved his life by ducking and springing backward from the swinging ax. . . .

Ascalante leaped like a wolf, halted almost in midair with incredible quickness and fell prostrate to avoid the death which was hissing toward him. He frantically whirled his feet out of the way and rolled clear as Conan recovered from his missed blow and struck again. This time the ax sank inches deep into the polished floor close to Ascalante's revolving legs.​

Clearly when Conan is stabbed by Ascalante, he has (in D&D terms) been hit and suffered hit point loss.

But what about when Ascalante ducks and springs backward, then falls prostrate, and then whirls his feet out of the way?

In the fiction this is Conan missing. But mechanically, what is going on? Is Conan missing - or hitting, and causing Ascalante to lose hit points, but not delivering fatal damage?

I think the latter, because otherwise Ascalante would - like everyone else in Conan except for Conan! - be a one-hit kill. And Conan would be rolling far too many 1s on his d20!

But I'm curious about other opinions. After all, the interpretation of "hit", "miss", "damage" and "healing" seems to be one of the things that is causing a lot of angst for D&Dnext dicsussions.

It sounds to me like Conan was hit in the arm hit location; since he has a lot of HP by virtue of his ST, he is able to absorb more damage to a hit location before that location becomes crippled. I would also say Conan has combat reflexes and high pain threshold, and does not suffer shock penalty.

Ascalante did some sort of retreating dodge and was able to move as part of his active defense.

 

[steenan]

For me, it's completely dependent on the assumptions the game makes about how HPs work.

When I ran 3e, HP loses were physical wounds. With non-magical HP recovery taking one-two weeks and magical recovery being "cure wounds" spells, it was the only interpretation that didn't require changing a big part of the system. It was completely unrealistic, but it was consistent and didn't break SoD.

I never ran 4e, but if I did, I'd be completely fine with interpreting non-bloodying HP loses as dodges and glancing blows. It would be problematic to do otherwise - regaining your stamina and determination after a few hours of rest is definitely more sensible than completely healing many wounds in one night.

Other games offer different interpretations.

In Mistborn RPG and most FATE-based games, HP loss may be interpreted as anything, as long as it is reasonable that it doesn't have any direct mechanical effect and is relatively short-term. But there are additional consequences tied with HP loss that are mechanical and potentially long-term. Depending on given session's style, I may imagine the whole scene described in the OP as having only one successful hit against Conan, having several hits that took HP, but only one (minor) consequence, or even with consequences for both combatants (Conan's "wounded arm" and Ascalante's "dodges like a coward").

In the homebrewed system we use when playing Exalted (the original system was to heavy for us) HPs are even more abstract and can have nothing to do with any kind of damage - they are just a measure of progress in the conflict, and the stakes are negotiated. It is perfectly possible to have the GM - in a fight against a person one loves - suggest stakes like "If you win the conflict, you defeat her and you both live; if you lose, one of you two die, your choice who.". In such fight, I wouldn't be surprised if a player narrated failed rolls as dealing and taking damage, and successful ones as trips, disarms, tricks and significant things said while fencing.

In a game I'm currently designing, HPs are spent to prevent damage, instead of representing damage taken. One has to spend HPs, because even a small wound is a burden and a single solid hit removes one from fight. In the scene from the OP, Conan have probably saved some HPs for later, accepting a minor wound, while Ascalante used them to fully dodge every attack and was left with very few at the end.


I'm fine with any of these approaches (and probably many different ones, too) used in D&D Next. I only want it to be implemented consistently, with all parts of the game threating HPs the same way, and the game text making it completely clear to players how to interpret HPs in play.

 

[pemerton]

it sounds to me like conan was hit in the arm hit location; since he has a lot of hp by virtue of his st, he is able to absorb more damage to a hit location before that location becomes crippled. I would also say conan has combat reflexes and high pain threshold, and does not suffer shock penalty.

Ascalante did some sort of retreating dodge and was able to move as part of his active defense.

gurps?

 

[pemerton]

In the homebrewed system we use when playing Exalted (the original system was to heavy for us) HPs are even more abstract and can have nothing to do with any kind of damage - they are just a measure of progress in the conflict, and the stakes are negotiated. It is perfectly possible to have the GM - in a fight against a person one loves - suggest stakes like "If you win the conflict, you defeat her and you both live; if you lose, one of you two die, your choice who.". In such fight, I wouldn't be surprised if a player narrated failed rolls as dealing and taking damage, and successful ones as trips, disarms, tricks and significant things said while fencing.

That reminds me of the "action point" system for extended contests from HeroWars. But I seem to remember from an earlier post that you don't know HeroWars/Quest!

In a game I'm currently designing, HPs are spent to prevent damage, instead of representing damage taken. One has to spend HPs, because even a small wound is a burden and a single solid hit removes one from fight. In the scene from the OP, Conan have probably saved some HPs for later, accepting a minor wound, while Ascalante used them to fully dodge every attack and was left with very few at the end.

Nice system.

For me, it's completely dependent on the assumptions the game makes about how HPs work.

<snip>

I'm fine with any of these approaches (and probably many different ones, too) used in D&D Next. I only want it to be implemented consistently, with all parts of the game threating HPs the same way, and the game text making it completely clear to players how to interpret HPs in play.

Interesting that there's another call for a single consistent version of hp in the game.

I think D&D combat is abstract (detailed or not), and that means that different people can narrate the same mechanical outcome in different ways. I think that's a feature of the game.

I'm assuming D&Dnext will go this sort of way.

 

[Argyle King]

gurps?

Si


I know it's a D&D discussion, but it also seems to be a discussion about the different ways HP can work. I chose to think outside the Red Box and illustrate a method which others may not be familiar with as a way to introduce different concepts so as to give a broader range of ideas to consider. I also chose a method which (imo) did the best job of illustrating the scene. I'm a D&D player who is also an avid R. Howard fan; I've often struggled to reconcile the two.

 

[Water Bob]

But I'm curious about other opinions. After all, the interpretation of "hit", "miss", "damage" and "healing" seems to be one of the things that is causing a lot of angst for D&Dnext dicsussions.

The answer is different depending on what rules set you are using, even though several editions of D&D and the Conan RPG all use hit points.

Does hit point loss mean real damage?

To answer this, I always look at the effect on the character of losing hit points, AND, I look at how long it takes to heal that damage naturally.

In D&D, if you don't knock a character down to zero hit points or into the negatives, there is no penalty on the character. As long as he still has one hit point, he can run, dodge, fight, jump, and do everything he normally can when he's at full health.

Therefore, any damage that does not take the character to zero or negative hit points is minor, minimal damage.





But, how long does it take to heal this damage naturally? Different games have difference answers for that. In 1E AD&D, it's one HP per 8 hours of rest. In 3.5 D&D, it's 1 HP per character level per 8 hours of rest. In the Conan RPG, it's 3 + CON mod + 1 per character level per 8 hours of rest, with a minimum of 1 HP. And, in all cases, there are ways to faster healing with more rest and medical help (not counting magic).

This tells you the relative worth, in a game, of 1 HP of damage.

In AD&D, 1 HP of damage is actualy a more serious wound than it is in 3.5 D&D or 2E Conan. Why? Because it takes longer to heal naturally.





Therefore, HP damage ALWAYS represents light, minor damage unless the character is taken to zero or negative hit points.

That's the threshold. The blow that takes a character to zero or negative hit points is the blow that results in serious damage on the character. There's a chance that the character may die from this blow.

If the character doesn't go to zero or negative hit points, then the blow is always minor.





What we've got to get our heads wrapped around is that a successful hit that does 19 points of damage is actually less serious than a blow that does 2 points of damage, if that second 2 point blow takes the character to zero or negative hit points.

In other words, If a Fighter with 40 HP takes a blow that does 19 points of damage, the Fighter is still only minorly damaged because there is no penalty to his physical actions. If he were suffering from a terrible wound as a result of that blow, then he'd have issues in not using one of his arms or have his Move Distanced modified--or he might be taking negatives on his attack because he can't swing as hard as he used to while suffering from the wound.

Since there is no physical penalty to the Fighter, the blow, no matter how many HP it reduces the character by, is still a minor blow.

Now, later in the fight, the same Fighter has been whittle down to 1 HP. And, his foe, not with his main weapon, but with a dagger in his foe's off hand, scores a hit for 3 points of damage.

THIS is blow that does some actual damage on the Fighter. The 3 HP blow did more real damage to the character than 19 Hp blow did earlier.

Why?

Because now, the Fighter suffers some real effects as a result of that blow.



But, there's another aspect of this game system that I haven't been addressing. And, that's the fact that melee in D&D is an abstract process. That 19 HP blow doesn't necessarily mean that one blow was struck on the character for a total of 19 hit point. It could have been several hits that add up to 19 hit points of damage during the six second combat round. Or, it could have been just two or three blows. Or, it could have been a combination of one successful blow and the effort expended by the character to block and dodge. Some of that damage could be fatigue.

Since melee in D&D is abstract, a lot of different things can happen.




In the end, the AC HP system in D&D is quite complicated and complex in its meaning but simple in its implementation.

Personally, I think it's brilliant. It promotes visual, exciting, heroic fantasy combat that can really be anything you want it to be because it's abstract.

And, I think some don't like the system because it's not an easy thing to understand.

 

[Water Bob]

Taking into account what I say in my last post above...

The king took Ascalante's point in his left arm, and the outlaw barely saved his life by ducking and springing backward from the swinging ax. . . .

Remember that the combat round is abstract. And a "hit" with a d20 throw does not necessarily mean a character hit his foe.

For example, Ascalante " barely saved his life by ducking and springing backward from the swinging ax". This could mean that, on Conan's turn, his d20 throw resulted in a miss. And, Ascalante took zero damage that combat round.

But...since the combat round is abstract, this could also mean that Conan's d20 throw was successful and did take off some of Ascalante's hit ponts. Just because the d20 shows a hit doesn't mean Conan scored a hit. The hit point loss that Ascalante recieves could come from expending the effort to duck and spring backward in the dodge of Conan's ax swing.

Likewise, a non-successful d20 miss can mean that Conan hit his foe, but no damage was imposed on Ascalante because Conan's foe parried.

Since the combat round is abstract, at least in regards to melee (thrown and missile weapons are not only partially abstract), representation of the "truth" of the combat round results in many varied answers.





Example.

Mechanically, Conan rolls a d20 and hits, doing 19 points of damage. This damage lowers Ascalante's HPs from 30 to 11.

What happened?

This could represent a variety of things.

1. Conan made a single blow to where his axe blade sliced through Ascalante's arm, delivering a lightly bleeding shallow flesh wound.

2. Conan made a swing with the axe, but Ascalanted dodged out of the way. No contact was made. But, Ascalante did twist his ankle in the process, making it a bit sword for him to jump around upon. And, this is represented in the game by the 19 HP that Ascalante took as damage. Now, with the sore ankle, Ascalente can't defend as well, which is experessed mechanically by the 11 HP he now has.

3. Conan made seven quick chops with his axe. Ascalante parried and dodged all of them, but the exhaustion of this, plus the brusing he took, is represented mechanically by the 19 HP of damage.

4. And, I could go on and on....

When dealing with the abstract, the real representation can really be anything the GM desribes.