Hitting to subdue and criticals

[Hypersmurf]

I'm not sure whether it even does.

It's weird... I could have sworn I'd read it somewhere in the Core Rules. Then first time the situation came up when I was DMing, I tried to find it... and I couldn't. I assumed I'd been dreaming.

But Corinth and S'mon both seem to be quoting the exact rule I thought I'd read and then decided didn't exist after all... which is making me doubt my sanity once again...!

-Hyp.

 

[Darkness]

Yeah, I sometimes think I recall it, too - but that's possibly because I play some other games that have such a rule (e.g., all White Wolf games).

So I searched in the PHB...

 

[Iron Sheep]

I posted in the original thread, thinking that it worked this way too, but when it was pointed out, I actually went and checked, and sure enough there isn't anything in the appropriate sections of the PH or DMG about extra subdual damage turning into real damage.

I think the confusion, at least in my case, comes from the fact that for damage from environmental effects like heat and cold, once you are knocked out by the subdual damage, you start taking real damage. But this appears to be an ideosyncracy of environmental damage.

I'm about to house rule that additional subdual causes real damage, but it is a house rule, so I'll have to let my players know. Fortunately, subdual damage hasn't been used yet in my current campaign.

 

[Squire James]

In general, no, extra subdual damage does not do real damage. Replace the girl with a troll and the answer is clearer.

However, if the DM is not allowed to apply an impromptu house rule, why the heck is he even there? While technically against the rules, I can understand a DM ruling that extra subdual converts to real damage (especially since there's a precedent for this idea in the hostile environment rules). Technically, a glass flask is immune to subdual damage, but it seems logical that someone with a sap would shatter it if he hits it hard enough.

 

[Mort]

Missing the issue.

The real issue isn’t really “does subdual damage turn into real damage” but should a Critical rolled when the intent is to subdue have any chance of killing the target or more specifically should a critical do any more than the player wanted it to do..

The real question then is: does a critical hit imply critical success?

If so – there should be NO chance of doing anything other than knocking a target out.

Let’s take a slightly silly example of not quite the situation presented but one that I think demonstrates the point.
There is a target hooked to a tree:
Bob: I shoot at the tree above the target.
DM: ok, roll to hit.
Bob: Wow, I rolled a confirmed critical.
DM: Great shot, you hit the target dead center.
Bob: Uh, but I was shooting at the tree.
DM: But this wasn’t just any hit, it was a critical and I think that deserves a special result, so you hit the target dead center!
Bob: But I wanted to hit the tree.
DM: Nope sorry, you get a special result because you critted.

As shown above, I think a critical that does anything other than what you want it to makes no sense – you are penalizing someone for success.

Now that does not mean a subdual strike should have no chance of error (even though none is presented in the rules). One house rule I could live with would be if you miss by less than 4 (the penalty you take to subdue with a non-subdual weapon) you do actual damage. This has its own problems (hitting when you should miss) but I’ve only seen PC’s subdue when they really need something alive and this imposes enough of a penalty

 

[La Bete]

While I believe that the GM has the right to make the calls that he does, speaking as someone who is addicted to playing rogues, this wouldnt make me very happy - in in this case, I am specifically referring to the 20 being good arguement.

For example, say my rogue is stalking a wealthy merchant, and smacks him over the head with a club (or sap).

While I would be OK with the GM ruling - "a '1'? cackle... ok roll damage but its real.... you kill him? oh thats too bad... perhaps you should try an honest prefession", if I rolled a 20, and in the middle of my victory moonwalk (and who doesnt say boo-yah, or similar on a 20), he did the same, that would be one hell of a comedown.

Secondly, as soemone pointed out, subdual damage becomes real only for environmental effects - although I think it is reasonable to have it 'flow-over' make it a house rule if you like.

(note that on the related thread, the GM admitted to a poor call as regards this)

 

[Vocenoctum]

As I mentioned on the other thread, a 20 is the same as a 19 but "one more" except in combat, where it has the chance to do extra damage. It's not a critical success and has no moral responsibility to the characters.

There's a very specific rule to allow increased damage on a crit. That's all it is, anything else is a house rule. (And that includes ruling that the strike did lethal damage of course.)

Maybe this should have gone to the House Rules forum?

 

[KnowTheToe]

I may be confused because I have a HUGE head ache, but it seems simple to me. There is no conversion of subdual to real damage because you are dead at -10 HP, no matter how you get there.

To think I could whack someone in the head with a two handed sword and be surprised that I killed him when I only meant to knock him out, would be silly.

A 20 is a critical hit and does extra damage. It reflects hitting a foe in key location or just a deep penetrating blow. Sorry that you did not want to do extra damage at the time but "nice Shot". You don't get to choose if you do extra damage, it just happens.

How many times have you seen after school specials where someone pushes another person down the stairs and the person dies. Ooops, max damage, death may not have been the intent, but it was the result none the less.

 

[Avatar28]

I did that one time. In our second edition game, my character was trying to subdue our last opponent to question him because we needed some information. So I roll to strike him with the flat of my blade (effectively subdual, though that wasn't in the 2e rules). What did I roll but a critical. Rolled damage and sure enough I managed to roll max damage on top of that. Not pretty. DM ruled that I had basically just caved the side of his skull in with the flat of my blade. Heh, oops.

 

[CullAfulMoshuN]

Subdual damage can never take someone to -10 because it is not subtracted from the targets hit points, but instead accumulated as a seperate total. If the subdual total ever exceeds the current hit point total the target is knocked out. (Subdual Damage PHB P134)

I agree with the critical success point of view. Since hit points a not necessarily a measure of physical toughness (from character levels anyway), but more of a means of quantifying skill and luck and the reason why important characters are usually the ones who survive things most would not walk away from.

It does not represent that a high level character getting hit by a longsword calmly plucks it unconcerned from his chest and beats his 1st level opponent to death with a back hand slap from his gauntlet. Instead though luck and skill he managed to deflect the soldiers viscious sword thrust aside just in time to avoid being skewered, with only a slight bruise from where it skimmed across his chainmail.

So from the same reasoning, a critical hit in the same instance does not even necessarily denote a dangerous wound (critical from longsword takes 14hp from above fighters pool of 120hp as opposed to 7hp), more that his luck is running out faster, as he was also winded a bit from the strike. (I also use DnDChicks critical tables though, so it could potentially be much worse).

My above demonstration intends to depict that critical hits as simply more successful blows than usual, not necessarily vital wounds. So the goes for a subdual attack, with the intent to knock out, rather than kill. A critical success should operate on the intent of the action, not the mechanics, so should never do real damage rather than subdual.