HM's Carrion Crown AP - OOC
- Thread starter HolyMan
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Satin Knights
First Post
Pathfinder Society's answer for the Vivisectionist is Expanded Arcana replaces the Extra Bombs, which normally replaces Brew Potion, to gain an extra extract at first level. The Hyrum Savage guy is the head of PFS, so his rulings are official.
paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder Society / General Discussion / The Vivisectionist: Need an Official Ruling
But that is a complete joke. It gives the alchemist one extra spell as an extract. But an alchemist learns spells from wizard scrolls, so it only saves him 25 gp in character creation costs. Big whoop!
So, I suggest the Extra Discovery feat to replace the Brew Potion/Extra Bombs feat that he is losing. Even that is limited, because so many of the discoveries are bombs.
Throw Anything is still useful, as it allows you to throw a chair, or a long sword, and not take a -4 to attack. That fits well with a feral rager I think. And you still get a +1 on throwing alchemist fires.
Toddy's tactics were sound. He is the "indestrruktable" llama. He cannot die, he can only be sent home to recuperate for a day. He charged in, engaging the enemy, while others were equipping and buffing themselves. If it wasn't for unknown special abilities, he would have kept the opponent 5' stepping while the rest of the party ganged up on him. With his +14 acrobatics, he will often be attempting to pulling off the trick Halal did to generate flank as often as he can.
Marshan's tactics are to bring surprise force down on someone from the second rank. In places he shouldn't get an attack at all because of reach, he gets barbarian quality damage without taking the normal time to buff. He only gets four surprise rounds a day before having to fight like an normal opponent.
Firvin should be singing as soon as we close to melee, or even just before. This next round should be three attacks from us, which nets a +3 damage. Once Toddy steps up and can full attack, it is 5 attacks per round for +5 damage if we can land our blows. Maintaining a bardic performance is a free action, so she can cast spells or use a crossbow in the following rounds and still keep our bonuses up and running.
paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder Society / General Discussion / The Vivisectionist: Need an Official Ruling
But that is a complete joke. It gives the alchemist one extra spell as an extract. But an alchemist learns spells from wizard scrolls, so it only saves him 25 gp in character creation costs. Big whoop!
So, I suggest the Extra Discovery feat to replace the Brew Potion/Extra Bombs feat that he is losing. Even that is limited, because so many of the discoveries are bombs.
Throw Anything is still useful, as it allows you to throw a chair, or a long sword, and not take a -4 to attack. That fits well with a feral rager I think. And you still get a +1 on throwing alchemist fires.
Toddy's tactics were sound. He is the "indestrruktable" llama. He cannot die, he can only be sent home to recuperate for a day. He charged in, engaging the enemy, while others were equipping and buffing themselves. If it wasn't for unknown special abilities, he would have kept the opponent 5' stepping while the rest of the party ganged up on him. With his +14 acrobatics, he will often be attempting to pulling off the trick Halal did to generate flank as often as he can.
Marshan's tactics are to bring surprise force down on someone from the second rank. In places he shouldn't get an attack at all because of reach, he gets barbarian quality damage without taking the normal time to buff. He only gets four surprise rounds a day before having to fight like an normal opponent.
Firvin should be singing as soon as we close to melee, or even just before. This next round should be three attacks from us, which nets a +3 damage. Once Toddy steps up and can full attack, it is 5 attacks per round for +5 damage if we can land our blows. Maintaining a bardic performance is a free action, so she can cast spells or use a crossbow in the following rounds and still keep our bonuses up and running.
GlassEye
Adventurer
Interesting and something to keep in mind if UM makes it to LPF. Doesn't really apply here since Gregori still has Brew Potion, though I appreciate the thought and the link.
Satin Knights said:
Before this run is over Gregori is going to throw a chair. Just wait.
perrinmiller
Adventurer
But I will not start singing on a round where everyone has already attacked. Unless a fight looks to be long from the beginning, I will only sing for one round and let Lingering Song continue it for 2 more. In cases like this, where we can afford to use up everything since resting for the day looks to be available afterward, I will probably burn it up after I start it.
If delaying and coordinating is not something we can work out even OOC, then I want to follow a published individual Initiative count. The most effective use of Firvin's abilities requires timing and teamwork in the opening rounds so not a single round is wasted. I see this being even more important later on with Area Effect spells.
In the later stages of most combats, Firvin will likely not have any impact as you guys mop up the last ones.
Satin Knights
First Post
You have to start singing before it affects our actions. Halal has missed twice in melee, Toddy has missed once in melee, Marshan has missed twice. Gregori is presumably climbing the back of the building, onto the roof, and is preparing his spectacular leaping charge attack from the roof.
There are only three things that will improve our chances to hit right now. Flanking, Inspire Courage, and Marshan stopping his attacking to cast Divine Favor on himself. That is wasting a 40% attack attempt to get a 5% better chance on the next one. The bardic performance of Inspire Courage does not stop it's effectiveness at the end of the round, but at your next initiative point if you don't maintain it for free. So, Inspire Courage was the correct thing to do, and was what you stated you were going to do. The Grease spell was likely a waste. It is a DC 13 reflex save for a critter that has an already been determined to have a high dex. The acrobatics check to move through grease is 10. It was already leaked that the critter has a +20, so ongoing difficulties that make Grease nice do not come into effect this time. One easy reflex save and the spell is wasted. In other words, the Grease spell was a long shot, when Inspire Courage would give us better chances.Sorry, I am not delaying for someone that does not call out the action they intend to do IC or OOC. I am not pausing to ask permission to act and wait an 1/2 earth's rotation, when the GM said to go ahead and attack, first come, first attack. Marshan posted his channel healing intention and carried through on it when he charged into battle. You posted an Inspire Courage, which in my opinion was the right thing, and then you didn't follow through. You asked for the characters' battle styles and we gave them to you.
You are sounding very prissy, wanting the melee characters to stand aside so that you can get your ranged attacks in. Your elemental attack does d6+1. My enlarged hammer does 3d6+4, and I can take up to three AoOs in a round. Toddy's claw/claw/bite routine does 2d4+d6+6 and he gets three AoOs at reach as well. And maybe not this level, but soon, Halal and Gregori's attacks are going to outshine mine by a whole lot. The bard/sorcerer job is to stand back as buff, support and battlefield control.
Um, no. Try to do something every round. You can shoot your bow. You can get closer and try your acid splash. Do something. Maintaining the bardic performance is a free action. So, you can still shoot the bow or cast a spell while providing the buffs. Shooting the bow into a melee crowd doesn't hit your comrades. So, it is always better than doing nothing. Your main job is singing for buff bonuses. That you, as the bard, are not doing it three rounds into a battle means there is something wrong. The Electric Bolt at the beginning was good. The Magic Missile was good. The Grease was a bad choice, or extreme long shot, because it was evident that the opponent has a very high dex.
It is time to start singing, especially since you have backed out of spell range for everything except Magic Missile. And use a move action to get your bow out and in hand. If this critter decides to run away, have something in hand to shoot it, unless you think a lonely 1 magic missile is going to drop it when you shoot it on the run.
Satin Knights
First Post
And then the long shot actually knocks the critter down. 
Goes to show there is no "one best action".
Goes to show there is no "one best action".
perrinmiller
Adventurer
So impatience or selfishness is the stand you want to take? Good that we all know.
I did post IC and it was not read or intentionally ignored without the courtesy of an OOC comment why. Both reasons are enough to make me upset. So yes, I am being "prissy".
I wanted us to have good teamwork and consideration for other player's actions, particularly after last week. Perhaps that was too much to hope for.
Seeing as polite requests in the general discussion of tactics and my IC request had no effect, I am going to be a jerk about it now. Since this combat is being run with Group Initiative, if you do not delay your post/actions until after Firvin does on the next round, I will take offense again and not use Inspire Courage.
Overall I do not appreciate the tone of your unsolicited advice about Firvin and telling me how to play my character (which I do NOT appreciate right now either, so please stop). Instead, I would rather you spent your time on the figuring out why you owe me a few apologies.
Satin Knights
First Post
Ok. I read your post different than you read your post. You wrote:
She calls to her companions, "If you hold a moment, I will inspire your next strikes with song."
and you apparently intended,
She calls to her companions, "If you hold your actions for a moment until I go, I will inspire your next strikes with song."
and I read it as,
She calls to her companions, "If you hold the line for a moment and don't die, I will inspire your next strikes with song."
and then you switched to a different tactic because your intention was not the intention I saw, so I did not react the same as you expected. We are not fighting a human or kobold that is trivial to survive against. It looks like we are fighting a demon or devil, and are greatly outmatched.
You said you want to do your Inspire Courage first in a round in order to be effective. I explained that it is a continuous effect that does not stop at the end of the round, so it doesn't matter when you start. I went on to say, get it started, and then do something else.
You said you want to conserve your precious resource that is 6 rounds/day. You have a feat that extends that to a max of 18 rounds a day. Yet, I am spending my precious resource that is only 4 rounds/day without hesitation in order to survive the fight. A fight that you have backed so far away from, Marshan cannot even see you any more. (assuming dim light, doubled, so 40')
I feel delay tatics and metagaming in the OOC for hours or days on end to get the "perfect attack sequence" is wrong, and as a GM I would penalize it harshly, negating it's effect completely. It is a combat situation that should be acted upon immediately with only the character's knowledge. The In Character comment was misheard, and not acted upon as expected.
Marshan nearly laughed in character, as he saw the bard use electricity against a demon, when nearly every demon is immune to electricity. He had not identified it as something other than demon until Halal yelled something about faeborn. Tensions are already high, so I did not include Marshan laughing at Firvin.
And lastly, you say you don't want me to tell you how to run your character. That is fine. I gave you advice. You can take it or leave it. But, in the previous paragraph of the same post, you demand to control my actions, and everyone elses. Ah, um, erm...
GE: That is about as polite as I can get in a response.
She calls to her companions, "If you hold a moment, I will inspire your next strikes with song."
and you apparently intended,
She calls to her companions, "If you hold your actions for a moment until I go, I will inspire your next strikes with song."
and I read it as,
She calls to her companions, "If you hold the line for a moment and don't die, I will inspire your next strikes with song."
and then you switched to a different tactic because your intention was not the intention I saw, so I did not react the same as you expected. We are not fighting a human or kobold that is trivial to survive against. It looks like we are fighting a demon or devil, and are greatly outmatched.
You said you want to do your Inspire Courage first in a round in order to be effective. I explained that it is a continuous effect that does not stop at the end of the round, so it doesn't matter when you start. I went on to say, get it started, and then do something else.
You said you want to conserve your precious resource that is 6 rounds/day. You have a feat that extends that to a max of 18 rounds a day. Yet, I am spending my precious resource that is only 4 rounds/day without hesitation in order to survive the fight. A fight that you have backed so far away from, Marshan cannot even see you any more. (assuming dim light, doubled, so 40')
I feel delay tatics and metagaming in the OOC for hours or days on end to get the "perfect attack sequence" is wrong, and as a GM I would penalize it harshly, negating it's effect completely. It is a combat situation that should be acted upon immediately with only the character's knowledge. The In Character comment was misheard, and not acted upon as expected.
Marshan nearly laughed in character, as he saw the bard use electricity against a demon, when nearly every demon is immune to electricity. He had not identified it as something other than demon until Halal yelled something about faeborn. Tensions are already high, so I did not include Marshan laughing at Firvin.
And lastly, you say you don't want me to tell you how to run your character. That is fine. I gave you advice. You can take it or leave it. But, in the previous paragraph of the same post, you demand to control my actions, and everyone elses. Ah, um, erm...
GE: That is about as polite as I can get in a response.
HolyMan
Thy wounds are healed!
Sorry was at work when the "civilized" discussion was going on.
For the record I thought the OOC tactics comments were for when the characters have established themselves into a more coherent team. Again this not being the best way to get to the "meat" of what a person means when they post up an idea or comment. But I thought before we had said or just commented on having a few fights where the group doesn't act like a team and through this learns how to fight using each others strengths and weakness? This is only the third combat they have seen together...
- fought a bunch of thugs who had 11AC and where attacking to subdue (not much you can learn of your companions there).
- fought 1 zombie (out of a d3) that lasted two rounds so again not much to tell.
- and now Jack - who btw is not part of this adventure at all - just an add in to the bestairy and a way to up the XP as I found out you all need to hit level 4 by the end of this module so I threw him in thinking 5 on 1 would last two or three rounds and be over, but now am hoping for a little thorn in are resident tengu's side for a few levels to come.
So if the team isn't working together as it looks like from all the character's perspectives then after this fight would be the perfect time to discuss IC a few tactics. Also keep in mind what your characters knows/have seen. When I hear "Marshan nearly laughed because of the electricity attack" and you post nearly every demon is immune to electricity that may not be something he (Marshan) knows, so you (SK) could have added undo tension by posting something based on what you know.
And when I see someone holding a grudge from something that happened to their character after the character has been posted "walking it off". Then this to needs to be separated out when it comes to the game as there are other people involved trying to just have fun. To hold back on what the character is going to do IC because of the feelings of the player is not good RP.
You didn't truly read that or again misunderstood the "meat" of what he was saying. SK was following my instructions to post up first come first to attack. To say he was selfish or impatient to follow the DM's instructions is totally wrong.
This is selfishness here. From the player, as I'm sure Firvin would want to help and bring the creature down asap before it kills someone.
I took SK's advice as not how to play Firvin but as how to play a bard. Firvin is yours to decide on. SK was letting you know some of the best reasons to get inspired courage started and keep it going.
Now the "don't not do anything there is always an option" comment may be taken as telling you how to play Firvin. As Firvin might be the kind of character who likes to observe and then add in a strike when she thinks the time is right or some other little quirk, who knows still figuring out character personalities here. SK doesn't know surely if you don't have it all figured out and you should be adult enough to let comments like this pass without comment.
Only 4 hours passed in the IC not sure what you were looking for. Other players actions? I'm confused there. Everyone was doing what their characters would do - exactly how it should be.
I will say it. Although he did ask for SK to please stop at the end, so there is that little bit of civility. But being upset about the post from the IC with the sheriff I think is causing the animosity. And the still waiting on an apology from SK.
Well from where I sit SK is waiting for an apology from you perrinmiller.
HM
For the record I thought the OOC tactics comments were for when the characters have established themselves into a more coherent team. Again this not being the best way to get to the "meat" of what a person means when they post up an idea or comment. But I thought before we had said or just commented on having a few fights where the group doesn't act like a team and through this learns how to fight using each others strengths and weakness? This is only the third combat they have seen together...
- fought a bunch of thugs who had 11AC and where attacking to subdue (not much you can learn of your companions there).
- fought 1 zombie (out of a d3) that lasted two rounds so again not much to tell.
- and now Jack - who btw is not part of this adventure at all - just an add in to the bestairy and a way to up the XP as I found out you all need to hit level 4 by the end of this module so I threw him in thinking 5 on 1 would last two or three rounds and be over, but now am hoping for a little thorn in are resident tengu's side for a few levels to come.
So if the team isn't working together as it looks like from all the character's perspectives then after this fight would be the perfect time to discuss IC a few tactics. Also keep in mind what your characters knows/have seen. When I hear "Marshan nearly laughed because of the electricity attack" and you post nearly every demon is immune to electricity that may not be something he (Marshan) knows, so you (SK) could have added undo tension by posting something based on what you know.
And when I see someone holding a grudge from something that happened to their character after the character has been posted "walking it off". Then this to needs to be separated out when it comes to the game as there are other people involved trying to just have fun. To hold back on what the character is going to do IC because of the feelings of the player is not good RP.
SK said:
perrinmiller said:
You didn't truly read that or again misunderstood the "meat" of what he was saying. SK was following my instructions to post up first come first to attack. To say he was selfish or impatient to follow the DM's instructions is totally wrong.
perrinmiller said:
This is selfishness here. From the player, as I'm sure Firvin would want to help and bring the creature down asap before it kills someone.
perrinmiller said:
I took SK's advice as not how to play Firvin but as how to play a bard. Firvin is yours to decide on. SK was letting you know some of the best reasons to get inspired courage started and keep it going.
Now the "don't not do anything there is always an option" comment may be taken as telling you how to play Firvin. As Firvin might be the kind of character who likes to observe and then add in a strike when she thinks the time is right or some other little quirk, who knows still figuring out character personalities here. SK doesn't know surely if you don't have it all figured out and you should be adult enough to let comments like this pass without comment.
perrinmiller said:
Only 4 hours passed in the IC not sure what you were looking for. Other players actions? I'm confused there. Everyone was doing what their characters would do - exactly how it should be.
GE said:
I will say it. Although he did ask for SK to please stop at the end, so there is that little bit of civility. But being upset about the post from the IC with the sheriff I think is causing the animosity. And the still waiting on an apology from SK.
Well from where I sit SK is waiting for an apology from you perrinmiller.
HM
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