Hobbits are Back!

[Jawsh]

Humans hit middle age in game at 35. They hit venerable at 70. With max rolls they can live another 40 years. This means they can exist in the venerable state for a max of 36% of total lifespan. And they hit middle age 31.8% of the way through their total lifespan.

Elves hit middle age at 175, venerable at 350, and can live up to 750 years. Thus they can exist in a venerable state for 53% of their lifespan.....and hit middle age at a meagre 23% of the way through their total lifespan. That's weaksauce.

Just fix the aging chart. Make middle age around 240 years, and venerable around 480. Make maximum age 480+3d100. That would fix the problem.

Banshee

You keep saying there is a problem. Where is the problem? What exactly is weaksauce about being venerable for a long time?

 

[Banshee16]

You keep saying there is a problem. Where is the problem? What exactly is weaksauce about being venerable for a long time?

Before stating my case, I'm going to state a few points:

1-I understand this is a fantasy game, and that there are no such things as elves, wizards, unicorns, or chicks in chainmail.

2-I am not of the belief that a messed up lifespan in any way impairs an elf PC's ability to compete against or collaborate with other characters in an adventuring environment.

I *do* think that it damages the sense of verisimilitude in the game. No place in nature does there exist an animal (that I'm aware of) that spends 50% of its life in a state of decrepitude.

Why put that in a fantasy game? Elves are widely written in most fantasy literature (even D&D literature) as being long lived. Heck, even in D&D literature, through the editions, they had long lifespans....in 3E, when the rules basically spelled out an average lifespan of 550 years, you had flavour text claiming they could live millenia.

And then there are all the flavour text elements in 2nd and 3rd ed about elves having a slow physical aging process where they might look like they're in their 30's, even when they were old or venerable age categories? Why? Seems to me that it just confuses things.

Banshee

 

[Hussar]

You keep saying there is a problem. Where is the problem? What exactly is weaksauce about being venerable for a long time?

Because it means that most of the elves you meet should be venerable, which makes them a whole lot weaker than elves are typically portrayed to be. It doesn't mesh very well with the flavour of the race - long lived sure, but, a bunch of octogenarians? If the flavor was to match the mechanics, then every elven settlement you walked into would look like a seriously well preserved old folks home.

 

[Banshee16]

I understand where you're coming from and largely I agree. However, this is where the business end gets a bit sticky. If tieflings can look like anything, then it makes it really hard to have "iconic" images and it can create confusion among consumers.

You look at a picture of Tordek (the dwarf from 3e) and yup, that's a dwarf. No mistaking that at all. But, if halflings can be stout, broad, and bearded, it becomes trickier to depict the difference. Is that mini a halfling or a dwarf?

While I totally understand where you're coming from Jawsh, there also has to be some recognition of the marketing end of things as well. I mean, stepping over to a more visual medium - MMO's - and you see a pretty standardized lineup of iconic races. Tauren look a certain way. Night elves look a certain way. That sort of thing.

It's a fine balancing act.

Why do we need iconic images? Planescape had a wonderful variety of different "looks" for tieflings...IMO, Planescape had the best tiefling art of any edition, and it's kind of gone downhill since then. They're effectively mutants. If you want one with glowing eyes and a forked tongue, and smelling of brimstone, you can. If you want one with catlike claws and slit pupils, you can. If you want one with a second face growing out of his back, or a snaky tail, or horns or whatever, you can.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

Banshee16- oh yeah. The Tiste are an excellent way of describing elves.

Only problem is, they make really, REALLY poor PC's. I mean, even standard, unnamed Tiste are far and above superior to anyone else around them. Fine in a story, but, as a PC, problematic.

Are you thinking of ascendants, or regular Tiste Andii? I'm thinking regulars. Reading through Reaper's Gale at the moment, and a whole tribe of them just got butchered by regular human soldiers, no problem. So it's evident that not all of them are so powerful. Yes, the Silchas Ruins and Anomander Rakes might be......but they're high level, semi divine characters....epic in level.

I think elves could be long lived in a similar way, without expressly all being high level or super powerful as a result. They're not all adventurers. And, statistically, what are the odds of one living to a full lifespan without succumbing to some kind of accident? Just because they *could* live to 700 years (or 2000 years or 500 or whatever) doesn't mean they would. Could be that many succumb to accidents or illness well before that....be it coming down with some bad disease, getting drunk on elfwine and falling off a tree bridge and falling 50m to their doom after some revel, or getting kicked in the head by a horse......only your "special" ones or those that are lucky might last that full period.

Put it this way.....WotC put immortal elves in the game in Birthright, and it sure didn't seem to ruin that setting.

I actually think a setting where there are some kind of anti-demi human sentiments could be cool.....sort of like in The Witcher.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

Because it means that most of the elves you meet should be venerable, which makes them a whole lot weaker than elves are typically portrayed to be. It doesn't mesh very well with the flavour of the race - long lived sure, but, a bunch of octogenarians? If the flavor was to match the mechanics, then every elven settlement you walked into would look like a seriously well preserved old folks home.

Bingo. It doesn't even *work* from a logic perspective. How many humans are working in their late 70's, 80's, or 90's? Though some (particularly ones that are highly educated and intellectually active) may still be, the vast majority are not, and may be more dependent than anything.

But as written, statistically, half of many elven communities might consist of these aged specimens. Who takes care of them? Particularly given the race's well known low birthrate.

As I mentioned in my post above, I'm not saying this affects dungeon exploration. I'm just saying that it doesn't make much sense from a logic perspective.

Banshee

 

[Yora]

Adulthood in the mid 100s doesn't make sense either. If you want elves to be really long lived, the vast majority of live should be equivalent to the 30s and 40s.

 

[Banshee16]

Adulthood in the mid 100s doesn't make sense either. If you want elves to be really long lived, the vast majority of live should be equivalent to the 30s and 40s.

This is something where, again, the flavour text and the RAW seem to differ......in both 2E and 3E there is mention of elves aging as fast as humans until around 16 years old, then slowing down, and being adult by their 30's I believe....but that culturally, they're not considered adult until well over 100. But then the aging rules state that an elf character starts at age 100+X (as defined by starting class)....with the worst offender being wizards, I think, getting a 5d6 modifier or something (don't have my books in front of me).

And lots of flavour text in different books mentions elves living as long as 12 centuries. Yet, if they roll max, they can live no longer than 750 years (which is pretty darned long, anyways).

Banshee

 

[Yora]

It's the typical "multiple writers not knowing the entire established facts by other writers" problem.

 

[Banshee16]

It's the typical "multiple writers not knowing the entire established facts by other writers" problem.

Very probably. Would be nice if they could be consistent

I understand that not everyone is keen on the idea of immortal elves or faerie. At the least, I think immortal faerie/eladrin would be cool.....it's always how I've run faerie in my game....shades of Castle Falkenstein or Sidhe from 7th Sea.

If elves aren't, no biggie...but some consistency, and a more even/logical aging progression would be cool.

For *all* races, I think either something akin in concept to advanced levels, or a racial feat chain would be cool....so that there are ways to differentiate races throughout their careers.

Certain 3E sources, such as Arcana Unearthed, Dawnforced, and Morningstar had interesting takes on the idea. Not just for elves...but for halflings, gnomes, humans, dwarves, etc.

Banshee