Hold Person

[Justin D. Jacobson]

Over at The Scramble, I posted a conversion of Hold Person, somewhat controversially, as an encounter power that confers the helpless condition. Check it out and, if you're so inclined, post your thoughts.

 

[Tale]

It's insane. Should be a daily.

 

[abyssaldeath]

I would change the hit line to Hit: The target is stunned and restrained. (save ends both)

Also, I would add a miss line. Miss: The target is restrained till the end of his next turn.

 

[Justin D. Jacobson]

It's insane. Should be a daily.

Care to elaborate.

As I said in my reply to the Scramble post: I can see the argument for daily, but I think I still like it as is. Compare to the rogue’s Knockout power (lvl 9 daily, PHB 121). Yes, that is a daily, but it is (a) level 9, (b) deals damage too, (c) has a miss effect, and — importantly — (d) knocks the target unconscious, which is much worse than Hold Person above. Note that the held person can still use some powers, which might give him a chance to get out of the situation. Also, at level 13, the coup de grace becomes less of a threat than at lower levels.

 

[Cadfan]

Is being unconscious really all that worse? I mean, either way you don't move, don't attack, and get coup de grased.

Put me in the "too powerful for an encounter power" category. Compared to other powers which deny an enemy its turn, it is much more powerful.

 

[abyssaldeath]

How is a coup de grace less of a threat at 13th level?

 

[Justin D. Jacobson]

Is being unconscious really all that worse? I mean, either way you don't move, don't attack, and get coup de grased.

Not true. I'll post my Scramble reply: But Unconscious and Helpless+ are not synonymous. The victim of Hold Person above can use any number of powers to avoid further harm until the effect wears off: Astral Refuge, Angelic Intercission, Ethereal Stride, Fey Switch, Warlock’s Leap, Infuriating Elusiveness, Dimension Door, etc. That’s just on a quick skim and just looking at powers that let the victim get out of the way.

 

[Justin D. Jacobson]

How is a coup de grace less of a threat at 13th level?

I haven't done the heavy lifting mathwise, but my rough-and-dirty calculations suggest that the crit damage is less likely to reach the bloodied-equals-dead threshold at higher levels.

 

[Cadfan]

You're assuming that the victim is a PC. How many monsters can use powers like those?

The vast majority of the time, its going to come out to the same thing.

 

[abyssaldeath]

A Barbarian that blows his 9th level daily to Rage Strike can do over 65 points of damage easy. Even if you don't kill the guy you are still getting a free crit and that is huge.