Hold Person

[Justin D. Jacobson]

You're assuming that the victim is a PC. How many monsters can use powers like those?

The vast majority of the time, its going to come out to the same thing.

That was just a quick scan. There are plenty of monsters that have teleportation abilities or other abilities that can avoid the instakill result that everyone seems concerned about, e.g., the foulspawn seer's bend space ability. Most of the monster abilities don't have weapon or implement keywords.

 

[Justin D. Jacobson]

A Barbarian that blows his 9th level daily to Rage Strike can do over 65 points of damage easy. Even if you don't kill the guy you are still getting a free crit and that is huge.

Agreed, but that's sort of the exception that proves my point.

 

[RigaMortus2]

So here is my two cents to make this a little more balanced...

1) Make it a Close 1 or Melee 1 power. This way you have the slight drawback of putting yourself in harmsway. This could help balance it out.
2) If you prefer to keep it at range, maybe shorten the range to 5 or 3.
3) Change the condition to Stunned. Since that is essentially what is happening here. You are basically "freezing" the enemy in his tracks. I would even say to keep the Helpless condition if you want the "coup de grace" possibility in there.
4) Maybe add something like "If the target takes damage, the stunned/helpless conditions immediately wear off". So again, you'll get your CdG in there, but just once before it shakes them out of it.

I like the other suggestions of making it Daily or making it more like Sleep, where the initial hit stuns them and the subsequent failed save makes them helpless or something like that...

 

[Tale]

Agreed, but that's sort of the exception that proves my point.

The phrase "exception that proves the rule" is talking about how in cases where there is a rule for the limited set (the exception), there's an implied different rule for the remainder of the set. EX: No parking 11-5 implies that you can park at all other times. The exception of 11-5 proves the rule of parking at other times.

It does not mean "the existance of an example contrary to my position proves my position right." In fact, that useage of it is nonsense.

Giving free crits to all of your allies versus an opponent is a daily effect. Regardless of whether or not the enemy can run away.

 

[Cadfan]

That was just a quick scan. There are plenty of monsters that have teleportation abilities or other abilities that can avoid the instakill result that everyone seems concerned about, e.g., the foulspawn seer's bend space ability. Most of the monster abilities don't have weapon or implement keywords.

The first isn't much defense, as there are far, far more monsters who cannot teleport or otherwise escape.

The latter isn't a defense in a way, its a flaw with the power... did you really intend to create a hold person that prohibits a held enemy from stabbing you, but doesn't permit a held enemy from biting you? Why not just rewrite the power as, "Hit: On its next turn, the target loses its standard action and its move action." Is the ability to hold an enemy and slit its throat really that intrinsic to the flavor of Hold Person? I always viewed its "save or die before 6th level!" attributes as a flaw, rather than the purpose of the spell.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Mesmeric Hold is the 4e version of Hold Person (well, Hold Monster, really, since it's not restricted to persons). No need to convert it, but, if you did, it should probably imobilize.

Also, note that both tightly limitted-target powers and powers that are effectively 'save or die' are against the general spirit/design-philosophy of 4e. So a converted Hold Person that imobilized only natural humanoids would be inaporpriate because it'd be too restricted - but, at least it wouldn't be overpowered. A conversion that bestowed the helpless condition (tantamount to death, with CdG so devestating), even for a single turn, would be inapropriate on both counts.

 

[On Puget Sound]

Not to be a forum Nazi or anything, but shouldn't this be in house rules and fan creations?

 

[cjais]

The first isn't much defense, as there are far, far more monsters who cannot teleport or otherwise escape.

And even the ones who can teleport can only do that, what, 3 or 5 squares? That doesn't take you out of harm's way. That just ensures the rogue and his friends will have to stroll over a little further to stab you in the face.

The way I see it, immobilized and stunned are the equivalent of the "Held" conditions of old. They don't need the "Helpless" condition on top.

 

[DracoSuave]

Insane power is insane. Helpless (save ends) is bahroken. Helpless (save ends) on an encounter power is bahroken.

Having a singular type of power (Teleportation without an accessory) be its foil doesn't make it balanced. So what if the power doesn't work on Eladrin, or some arcane characters? It's still a total win on any other character, and an almost assured win even on Arcane.

Go back to drawing board.

 

[Piratecat]

Not to be a forum Nazi or anything, but shouldn't this be in house rules and fan creations?

It should! Vroooom, off we go.