Holy and Unholy Damage

[GX.Sigma]

Positive Energy heals living creatures and damages undead creatures. The damage side is radiant damage.

Negative Energy heals undead creatures and damages living creatures. The damage side is necrotic damage.

The power of celestials and good gods is holy energy.

The power of fiends and evil gods is unholy energy.

Clerics of good gods use holy energy, and are closely associated with positive energy (channel divinity, cure wounds), but can still use negative energy (inflict wounds).

Clerics of evil gods use unholy energy, and are closely associated with negative energy (channel divinity, inflict wounds), but can still use positive energy (cure wounds).

....is what would have made perfect sense, but then they messed it up by having channel divinity deal holy or unholy damage.

 

[The Shadow]

I've disliked "holy" and "unholy" as it draws us into the rather muddy waters of a dualistic monotheistic religious system, ie: real life and Christianity.

Dualistic? Not by any definition of the term I'm aware of. The only major dualistic real-world religious system I'm aware of is Zoroastrianism.

Those things don't really exist in D&D, so I feel that "radiant" and "necrotic" fill the voids better because they don't harken to a particular religious ideology.

I don't think monotheistic systems have a monopoly on the idea of holiness or the sacred.

And for that matter I have created monotheistic D&D campaigns in the past; I know I'm not the only one. It's not hard at all - you just have clerics of different Domains being devoted to different aspects of God. They certainly don't have to all get along like one big happy family, either.

Now what *is* rather strange about many D&D settings is that they often feature polytheistic pantheons in cultures that just don't seem to reflect a polytheistic aesthetic or outlook in any other way.

"Holy" presupposes "good" and "unholy" presupposes evil, but traditionally in many societies, sun gods were considered highly wrathful and destructive, giving rise to hot summers, wilting crops, and drying up sources of water. Likewise, gods of death were not always framed as murderous monsters and the powers of death were as natural as the powers of life.

Okay. So, if that's what you're going for, why not make your sun god of evil alignment and use unholy damage? Or just avoid those spells entirely and use radiant? But when it comes to a guy like, say, Lathander, holy seems to fill the bill.

I'm right with you on the ridiculous way gods of death are treated by pulp fantasy generally, and D&D in particular. But it seems easy enough to fix the problem by not making them evil-aligned. I don't think it's particularly helpful to give them necrotic damage, though, since that has knock-on effects with undead that a god of death probably disapproves of.

(Of course, that just gets me started ranting on the illogical ways undead have been treated in D&D for a long time... To name just one thing, why can't the Inflict Wounds spells just be expressions of divine wrath, and not heal undead at all?)

"holy" and "unholy" is more like alignment. It's all about perception. Radiant and necrotic are actual power sources. Evil beings can perceive themselves to be holy, holy beings can wield necrotic energy.

We needn't go all relativist. Though if you want to, even that can be fitted into a holy/unholy dichotomy. Like I said, just view holy and unholy as different flavors of 'divine' - it's the power of The Gods. Devils, at least, have fluff of formerly being divine servitors; and some gods side with them now. They're 'unholy' - the side they rebelled against (some of which might even be evil-aligned, if you want that) is 'holy'. On this view, 'unholy' is synonymous with 'rebel', for better and for worse.

Undead could fit into 'unholy' because they are products of disrupting the ordinary process of death that the 'holy' death gods represent and uphold.

 

[gyor]

I look at holy and unholy as just vibrantions of pure divine energy. Imagine a zombie (unholy) is your cell phone and you use a North American charger in a Europeon outlet (holy). Its a toxic vibration of divine energy and it will damage the Zombie's normal Unholy energy. Unholy and Holy energy can take any form, depending on the deity.

Radiant I just see as Lasers, no automatic spiritual connection, no more then fire and cold.

Necrotic energy I see as the energy released by the entropy of life. As life and health degrade, die, it releases necrotic energy. It can be used to power undead, stealing the decaying animating force from other creatures. Dead dead creatures don't produce necrotic energy as thier's no life left to decay.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

Holy and Unholy are not necessarily tied to Good and Evil. They just deal with what is considered sacred and what is considered profane.

A good question to ask is: "Is a dark god's power holy or unholy?"

If a dark god's power is "unholy" then Holy/Unholy pertain to Good/Evil. If a dark god's power is "holy" then Holy/Unholy pertains to something other than Good/Evil.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Holy and Unholy are not necessarily tied to Good and Evil. They just deal with what is considered sacred and what is considered profane.

This is something I've always found strange about D&D gods, though. Would anyone who actually worships a god consider it to be "profane"? Wouldn't every god be considered to be "holy" by its followers?

 

[The Shadow]

This is something I've always found strange about D&D gods, though. Would anyone who actually worships a god consider it to be "profane"? Wouldn't every god be considered to be "holy" by its followers?

Er. You might want to look up the word 'profane'. It is the polar opposite to 'sacred' or 'holy'.

And to answer your question... Not necessarily. Or at least, not necessarily 'holy' in the sense of 'good'. Some gods are propitiated out of fear, not love. Also, not every culture even has a sense of the holy or of 'gods' at all - many animists don't. To them, many spirits are dangerous, and some are downright malevolent, so you take precautions... but they aren't gods, and they aren't worshipped.

If I were going to construct a system reflecting real-world thoughts and feelings on the numinous, I'd probably just use 'divine', and if 'unholy' came up at all, it'd apply to those who'd rebelled against the gods. In that case, 'holy' would not at all necessarily mean 'good', and 'unholy' might not imply 'evil'. (Though in a monotheistic campaign, it might well work out that way.)

But when you get down to it, D&D tradition really does go in for this great divide. And it works well enough. Just don't push the Great Wheel on me, and I'm good.

 

[variant]

I've disliked "holy" and "unholy" as it draws us into the rather muddy waters of a dualistic monotheistic religious system, ie: real life and Christianity.

Those things don't really exist in D&D, so I feel that "radiant" and "necrotic" fill the voids better because they don't harken to a particular religious ideology.

"Holy" presupposes "good" and "unholy" presupposes evil, but traditionally in many societies, sun gods were considered highly wrathful and destructive, giving rise to hot summers, wilting crops, and drying up sources of water. Likewise, gods of death were not always framed as murderous monsters and the powers of death were as natural as the powers of life.

"holy" and "unholy" is more like alignment. It's all about perception. Radiant and necrotic are actual power sources. Evil beings can perceive themselves to be holy, holy beings can wield necrotic energy.

They do exist because D&D is full of Christian symbolism. Whether it is the concept of holiness and angels or unholiness and demons. There is a very hardline on what is good and what is evil in D&D. There is no ambiguity in D&D, never has been.

 

[Sunseeker]

They do exist because D&D is full of Christian symbolism. Whether it is the concept of holiness and angels or unholiness and demons. There is a very hardline on what is good and what is evil in D&D. There is no ambiguity in D&D, never has been.

D&D is full of a LOT of mythological symbolism, and only a sprinkle of it is biblical.

And I disagree with the latter. There's a lot of things that are obviously good and obviously evil, but there are a lot more things that are shades of gray, especially when it comes to players and their interactions with a world.

 

[Grimmjow]

i dont think there should be a cleric that does unholy damage, even if he is an evil cleric worshipping an evil god. If a cleric worships Vecna, undead are holy to him. Holy damage should be represented by powers that come from the worship of your characters god, wether he is a good god or an evil god.