Holy cow my party has 3 strikers in it

[tiornys]

Strikers only feel like they contribute almost nothing when they go on a terribad rolling streak.

Controllers: Occasionally awesome, usually mediocre, sometimes awful

Strikers: Often awesome, sometimes great, rarely mediocre

In my experience, Strikers also feel like they contribute almost nothing when they drop within the first two rounds of combat, and then spend the rest of the combat trying to get back up and getting smacked back down every time they do.

And, if we're defining Awesome as "completely alter the course of the battle", which is the appropriate definition for the Controller's awesomeness, then it's more like:

Controllers: Sometimes awesome, sometimes great, sometimes mediocre, sometimes awful

Strikers: Rarely awesome, often great, sometimes mediocre, rarely awful

t~

 

[Sadrik]

This is as hilarious as it is maddening. "Idealized version of what really happens" is the exact phrase I would use to describe the all-striker argument, which consists of nothing but heavy extrapolation and theory atop a thin layer of anecdotal evidence.

Isn't that a funny thing, I noticed up thread that we (posters) were using the exact same language to describe our diametrically opposed views.

If you are looking for evidence, then please peruse the other thread and contribute there. Answers will be found, that is the point of that thread.

 

[Sadrik]

So here is my thoughts on the 4 roles, the most pertinent role is the striker of course.

Strikers
The absolute awesomeness, the classes that put all others to shame. Dispatching 10 hit monsters in half the time (not to mention many of them have a higher chance of hitting too - Avenger, Ranger and Rogue). Amazing game board maneuverability and often stealth, are keys to the classes ability to get past the front lines and deal with bosses and artillery. Especially excellent against solos they have problems against very few encounter types. Encounters that do overwhelm them they have the ability to escape through their ability to hide, maneuver better than other roles. Grade: A

Leaders
The next best thing, whether their ability to let the strikers make additional attacks, do striker like damage against undead or give a myriad of mini-tactical bonuses that help the strikers out I would say one of them is warranted in a group of four or more. They also help in conserving healing surges between encounters and can extend the parties workday. Leaders do not excel in most combat situations and too many leaders will cause the game to stagnate and draw combat out, but with their healing powers they should be able to survive the ensuing drawn out battle. If overwhelmed they will not survive as they have nearly no powers of egress. Grade: C

Defenders
They simply tie up a few creatures waiting for the strikers to kill them off. They require a leader to spend more resources on them. Defenders that specialize in defense are contrary to good for the group. They actually serve to lengthen fights and make battles drag on. They are tough and stuff, debuff those they mark and have defenses that are around as good as the strikers if not a point or two better. Defenders have a choice they can be built worse than controllers or built nearly as good as strikers. The defender that focuses on damage output that is comparable to a striker is just a striker with the defender tag. This type of defender is acceptable and wanted. A defensive build defender is anti-fun for the group as a whole, because it does not pull its own weight. Grade: D for defensive/B for offensive

Controllers
Controllers are the ultimate in anti-fun for the group. They are the 4e equivalent of the bard. They can apply small damage to multiple opponents, stick zones in play, use summons, apply 1 round duration status effects and best of all have the worst defense, HP and Healing surges in the game. They cannot stand up against any other role in 1 on 1 combat. They are the only role that truly cannot work without a group (similar to the bard). Without the other players there to protect them they will fold up shop. Solos will slay them, in fact everything but minions will slay them. Another controller game play feature is that the party has to actually maneuver around to defend the controller from death. This is often very difficult for the party to do. The controller also hurts the party with their zones and AoE spells, the party has to try and maneuver around the spells and the zones cut into their own maneuverability. Grade: F

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

By the way, regarding wizards, Arcane Power has the Dual Implement Spellcaster feat, so they can two held implements to damage...can you say OUCH!?

I am personally peeved that so many wizard AOE's hit allies, grr!! A few don't though.
Some feats can stop allies being hurt by the way:
War Wizardry (paragon), from Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide 4th ed, reduces damage and attack vs allies, it's damn good, IMHO.

Spell Accuracy (epic) feat lets you omit 1 square per Wis modifier in the PHB, so many wizards are control wizards and use that stat...so that's a good one.

I was using the character builder, to test stuff, Eladrin wizard, with Eladrin Sword Wizardy (heroic) lets you use a sword as a wand...now that could be interesting!

At lvl 30, he does 2d6+19 damage with Thunderwave, with push 5

• Epic Resurgance (regain encounter power on a crit), since he uses a lot of area powers, lot of chances to crit.
• Wizard Implement Expertize (epic) crits on 19-20
• Destructive Wizardy (paragon), he does +4 bonus damage to every one struck when he hits 2 or more targets at lvl 21+, less at heroic and paragon levels (so that will apply a lot)
• Burning Blizzard feat (heroic) bonus damage on acid or cold powers
• Arcane Admixture onto his other at will power to add fire, Chilling Cloud, which does 22hp damage every hit.,.area burst
• Arcane Fire feat , target gains vulnerable 5 fire with 1st arcane attack you use against the target before end of next turn. So Chilling Cloud does 27 hp
• Wintertouched[/] feat, gain combat advantage creature that is vulnerable to cold...see Chilling Cloud!
  [*]Alertness and Imporved initiative, so he gets that crucial first-strike chance! +22 initiative at lvl 30
  [*]Dual Implement Spell Caster for more damage, he uses an orb and sword
  [*]War Wizardry to reduce any chance of hurting allies.
  [*]Second Implement (so he has wand and orb mastery)
  [*]Improved Orb of Imposition, paragon, so when you use Orb of Imposition power, each time enemy fails it's save it takes a total of 10 damage and takes -2 saves anyway from Spell Accuracy.
  [*]Explosive Spellcasting, epic, implment extra damage crit can be aplied ot any single creature.
  

Arcane Wayfarer paragon path, crit hit = teleport the target 4 spaces.

as a lvl 30 Magister epic destiny, he gets bonuses to the defence type he last attacked and twice per day can perform rituals as standard actions (now is that useful or what?!)

Soooooo....this guy can do control pretty nice, nearly all his spells have control effects, but he can also dish out damage good style.
What's not to like?

question though: since he can use a longsword as an implement, does that mean he can use the Tyrant longsword's ability that on any crit it knocks the target prone? if so, hubba hubba!!

[sblock="Eladrin Whizzbanger wizard"]
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
level 30
Eladrin, Wizard, Arcane Wayfarer, Magister
Build: Control Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Wand of Accuracy
Magister's Knack: Magister's Knack Intelligence
Second Implement: Orb of Imposition
Arcane Admixture: Arcane Admixture Fire
Arcane Admixture: Chilling Cloud

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 16, Dex 16, Int 26, Wis 20, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 39 Fort: 36 Reflex: 41 Will: 41
HP: 142 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 35

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +23, Arcana +30, Diplomacy +21, Dungeoneering +25, Religion +28

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +18, Bluff +16, Endurance +18, Heal +20, History +25, Insight +20, Intimidate +16, Nature +20, Perception +22, Streetwise +16, Thievery +18, Athletics +17

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Burning Blizzard
Level 2: Improved Initiative
Level 4: Expanded Spellbook
Level 6: Alertness
Level 8: Arcane Fire
Level 10: Wintertouched
Level 11: Destructive Wizardry
Level 12: Second Implement
Level 14: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 16: War Wizardry
Level 18: Arcane Admixture
Level 20: Improved Orb of Imposition
Level 21: Spell Accuracy
Level 22: Wizard Implement Expertise
Level 24: Epic Resurgence
Level 26: Robust Defenses
Level 28: Explosive Spellcasting
Level 30: Eladrin Sword Wizardry

POWERS
Wizard at-will 1: Chilling Cloud
Wizard at-will 1: Thunderwave
Wizard daily 1: Flaming Sphere
Wizard daily 15: Ball Lightning (replaces Ice Storm)
Wizard daily 19: Disintegrate (replaces Acid Mire)
Wizard daily 19 Spellbook: Acid Wave
Wizard daily 19 Spellbook: Oppressive Force
Wizard daily 25: Orbmaster's Prismatic Sphere (replaces Flaming Sphere)
Wizard daily 25 Spellbook: Bubbling Acid
Wizard daily 25 Spellbook: Cinder Storm
Wizard daily 29: Visions of Wrath (replaces Ball Lightning)
Wizard daily 29 Spellbook: Legion's Hold
Wizard daily 29 Spellbook: Prismatic Wall
Wizard daily 5: Acid Mire
Wizard daily 9: Ice Storm
Wizard encounter 1: Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation
Wizard encounter 13: Frostburn (replaces Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation)
Wizard encounter 17: Crushing Titan's Fist (replaces Color Spray)
Wizard encounter 23: Chain Lightning (replaces Tomebound Ooze)
Wizard encounter 27: Black Fire (replaces Frostburn)
Wizard encounter 3: Color Spray
Wizard encounter 7: Tomebound Ooze
Wizard utility 10: Arcane Gate
Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Mass Resistance
Wizard utility 16: Stoneskin
Wizard utility 16 Spellbook: Fly
Wizard utility 2: Feather Fall
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Guardian Blades
Wizard utility 22: Mass Fly
Wizard utility 22 Spellbook: Time Stop
Wizard utility 6: Dimension Door
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Wizard's Escape

ITEMS
Spellbook, Orb of Weakness Intensified +6, Dawn Warrior Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +6, Medallion of Death Deferred +6, Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing), Adventurer's Kit, Implement, Orb, Tyrant's Longsword +5
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

[/sblock]

 

[Old Gumphrey]

I love how people assume strikers are glass cannons because that's what makes sense, but they are actually NOT the glass cannons. Controllers are glass, but they are not cannons. They're just glass. But it's clear people are just not going to listen to anything I say about this subject, and will instead recite what they believe should be the case, but actually is not.

I mean look at your players' character sheets...you'll notice that the wizard has the lowest HP, the lowest defenses, the least amount of surges, and, by and large, the worst damage output of the group (except for these apparent wizard geniuses who can ALWAYS target 3+ enemies with their powers, even though 95% of the time your friends are in the way, because if they're not in your way, they're probably not doing their jobs).

So the only thing "going down in 2 rounds" is a wizard. And if we're talking about ruthless focus fire, you can put any class into the dirt fairly quickly (because, as we're trying to tell you, defenders don't have that much more HP and defenses than an EQUALLY OPTIMIZED striker).

At lvl 30, he does 2d6+19 damage with Thunderwave, with push 5

Meanwhile, my ranger does 4d12 + 3d8 + 18, with Twin Strike, and doesn't even have to try very hard to get those numbers. I don't need to push 5, because I have a pet standing in front of my target and I'm shooting it from 25 squares away with no penalties. Thunderwave isn't damage, it's a panic button to clear stuff away from your gimpy, wimpy wizard (PS the ranger has like 7 panic buttons to interrupt attacks, get away from melee attackers, and improve their defenses, all with more damage output and better defenses, HP, and surges).

 

[Iron Sky]

When 4e first came out, we played a test mini-campaign of about 3-4 sessions with a "balanced group": Paladin, rogue, cleric, and wizard. For the first few sessions, I recorded everyone's damage dealt, taken, healed, etc. I've unfortunately since lost the sheet I wrote it all down on (sadly), but there were a few things I remember:

In the duration of the game, the wizard only went bloodied in one fight and was never dropped (paladin dropped once, rogue three times, cleric never). In many of the fights(at least a third, maybe as many as 2/3) he didn't take any damage.

In one session, the wizard did more damage than anyone else by double digits. In one fight he did double the damage of the next highest character.

He had no non-AoE powers but never once did he have to blast an ally. Everyone else was constantly thinking about how to get as many enemies grouped so he could blast them while staying out of his way themselves and we somehow managed to do so without reducing our own effectiveness.


True this was our first game, only level 1-2, and we weren't optimized, but it is some personal experience...

 

[Victim]

Why does the wizard have the lowest defenses again? In my experience, wizards tend to have pretty good defenses - their primary stat adds to AC, they can easily get armor upgrades, the most commonly picked secondary stats add to different defenses, and they have strong defensive powers in staves, Shield, etc. They certainly seem better defended than rogues - rangers are more unpredictable since their Immediate movement can just result in the monster pursuing them anyway, or have it attack someone else instead (not necessarily a net benefit for the party).

In my experience, wizards have been very effective even in online play with strangers which generally interferes with the coordination some claim is for their effectiveness. Pushing several people into walls generally resulted in more damage than the strikers combined, and timely movement lockdown powers kept the party from being overwhelmed. In an Epic game, we ended up with my Blood Mage/Archmage and TWO Artful Rogues with Tornado Throw (since one player basically copied someone else's character with some minor modifications) - huge synergy for each of us.

I can link to those old PbP threads if you really want.

Thunderwave isn't damage until you use the push several enemies into wall so they take damage for entering AND starting their turns in it.

 

[Herschel]

I love how people assume strikers are glass cannons because that's what makes sense, but they are actually NOT the glass cannons. Controllers are glass, but they are not cannons. They're just glass. But it's clear people are just not going to listen to anything I say about this subject, and will instead recite what they believe should be the case, but actually is not.....

.

Some of us KNOW they're glass cannons from dropping them or seeing them dropped repeatedly. Your comparison to the controller is weak because in this thread we're talking all strikers vs. said controller WITH the defender and leader with him. The one-on-one comparison is not applicable.

 

[javcs]

Some of us KNOW they're glass cannons from dropping them or seeing them dropped repeatedly. Your comparison to the controller is weak because in this thread we're talking all strikers vs. said controller WITH the defender and leader with him. The one-on-one comparison is not applicable.

My experience is vastly different than yours, then.

In one of my games, the group is currently composed of 3 strikers, 1 leader, 1 defender, 1 controller, consisting of a fighter, a ranger, a rogue, a warlock, a warlord, and a wizard. I joined about 2 sessions in, and apparently no-one before then had really gone down. My initial character was a rogue, opening fight I got in somewhat over my head, mainly due to some stupidity/lack of adjustment from 3.x and good rolls on the DM's part, but I stayed up, granted I was worst off in the group, second only to the warlord (he was out of in-combat healing and down to single digits), and I'd been taking the brunt of the opposition - what damage I wasn't taking was due to the fact that there were only so many melee opponents that could hit me - I was back against a wall. That was the first fight where anyone had come close to going down. I realized that I liked rangers better and prepped to swap out.
Soon after (out of game), we run into a massive (40+ opponents, about 3/4ths minions) war party - the DM says he's trying to find our limits - and aren't optimally positioned to start with, possibly exacerbating things is the fact that we experimented with a hex grid for this battle (Note: 4th ed doesn't play nice with hexes). The DM's dice were hot, and ours weren't doing so well; the party looses initiative, the rogue gets gang-flanked by 3 non-minions and a minion, with one non-flanking minion, the fighter is completely surrounded by a mix of minions and non-minions (with horrendous to-hit dice), the wizard gets only partly swarmed by minions with a couple non-minions, the warlord is swarmed by minions, the warlock got minions in his face early on but quickly got out of the mass of opposition away from the enemy artillery, and my (then still) rogue had only minions but fey stepped out to solo the enemy artillery along with their attendant minions and non-minion defenders. By the end of the combat, the wizard was dead (second wind used), the fighter was in single digits and had gone down twice (second wind used), the warlord was out of healing abilities and bloodied (second wind remaining), the warlock was nearly full-up and had some temp HP (second wind remaining), the other rogue had gone down twice, and only by a couple HP both times, but was still alive, and my rogue had been hit once (second wind remaining). I believe that we all expected the other rogue to die - the DM even tried to have one of the last remaining enemies break away and kill her, but failed. We got the wizard raised.
Those are the only times in that campaign that one of the strikers has come close to going down. And, for the record, while the ranger I switched to can handle ranged combat just fine, it's primarily a twf-melee build.
The wizard, the warlord, and the fighter each have gone down/come closer to going down, more times than each of the strikers, and possibly more times than all of the strikers combined.

 

[Trevelyan]

I love how people assume strikers are glass cannons because that's what makes sense, but they are actually NOT the glass cannons. Controllers are glass, but they are not cannons.

Speak for yourself. My wizard is a cannon, and typically takes less damage than everyone else in a fight.

I mean look at your players' character sheets...you'll notice that the wizard has the lowest HP, the lowest defenses, the least amount of surges,

Hardly. Looking at the sheets for my group the wizard has the same AC as the shield using cleric with maxed Int swordmage adn the full plate + large shield using fighter coming in first and second. The wizard, currently without a neck slot item, has the same NADs or higher as the fighter, approoximately the same as the swordmage and significantly better than the cleric. Oh, and as a staff wizard with good Con the wizard has as many surges as the cleric and uses far fewer of them in a fight.

and, by and large, the worst damage output of the group (except for these apparent wizard geniuses who can ALWAYS target 3+ enemies with their powers, even though 95% of the time your friends are in the way, because if they're not in your way, they're probably not doing their jobs).

And that's where you are wrong. Because if they are in the way then the rest of the party isn't doing their jobs. It's pretty easy, if you have defenders to lock down targets, or just a few bodies to form a shield wall, to put up a defensive line with the monsters stuck on the far side of it just begging to be hit with an AoE attack. And for the occasions when this isn't possible, or something breaks through the line, then you have a few single target spells with frequent riders to push them back into place.

So the only thing "going down in 2 rounds" is a wizard.

Actually, so far the only thing to go through several encounters unscathed, in spite of the DM trying to hit it, is the wizard.

Meanwhile, my ranger does 4d12 + 3d8 + 18, with Twin Strike, and doesn't even have to try very hard to get those numbers.

A +6 Great bow with weapon focus and assuming that both attacks hit? Average of around 58 damage, which isn't bad. Of course my warlock (in my other group) would be doing 7d6 + 34 with Hellish Rebuke and a basic +6 rod for an average of 59 damage and I'm told that warlock damage is pretty low.

More significantly my wizard, using a staff of ruin and dual wielding it will be doing 2d6 + 29 damage with Scorching Burst, for an average of 36 damage each to 2 targets for total damage of 72, assuming both attacks hit (which you did with your ranger example). If I manage to hit a third target (say by enlarging the speel for slightly reduced damage) then I could still be putting out in excess of 90 damage per turn with an at-will power. By any reasonable assessment, that has to be useful.

I don't need to push 5, because I have a pet standing in front of my target and I'm shooting it from 25 squares away with no penalties. Thunderwave isn't damage, it's a panic button to clear stuff away from your gimpy, wimpy wizard

It really isn't. Thunderwave is an offensive positioning power. As a defense it fails because simply pushing an enemy 5 sqaures doesn't remove the threat at any level, and the wizard has many better panic buttons than that (immediate interrupt teleports and turn long defence enhancers, for a start). that you consider Thunderwave a poor defense and nothing else just illustrates how little you know about playing wizards.