Holy cow my party has 3 strikers in it

[tiornys]

The main argument I keep seeing from the pro-striker camp is damage output. So, let's look at the roles and their contribution to damage output.

Strikers
Strikers have the highest average single target damage output. They also have abilities that enhance their ability to direct that damage at any target. That makes them the most efficient single character at bringing down a given target. Striker proponents have argued that these facts make a party of strikers the most efficient party at bringing down an enemy party.

Defenders
Defenders have the second highest average single target damage output. Some defenders are capable of damage output that rivals that of the best strikers (and clearly outclasses the lower damage strikers). However, they lack the mobility options of the Striker. Defenders also indirectly enhance the damage output of the party by making it less likely that a party member is disabled.

Leaders
Leaders have the second lowest average single target damage output. However, they indirectly contribute to party damage output in two ways. First, they have tools that help disabled party members recover. More importantly, Leaders grant force multipliers in the form of attack bonuses, damage bonuses, and extra attacks, causing the other party members to deal extra damage.

Controllers
Controllers have the lowest average single target damage output. However, they are capable of the highest overall damage output through large area of effect attacks. They compensate for the general weakness of multi-target damage as compared with focused damage through effects, which can both hinder the enemy's ability to deal damage and enhance the party's damage output.

So, here's the thing. Even though Strikers have the best individual single target damage, they don't necessarily contribute the most damage to a party. Leaders and Controllers are easily capable of contributing more to overall damage output, and while Defenders will usually cause a slight drop in party damage per round, the extra resources they add to the party are more beneficial in adverse situations.

t~

 

[Iron Sky]

From my experience with a group that was initially three strikers and a leader, I'd say the leader is by far the most important member.

With this majority-striker party, we often wished we had a controller or a defender. So, in the end, we ended up molding our characters into those roles: I started molding my ranger into a defender and our warlock became our controller.

Now that we've added a paladin the group is alot more balanced and everyone is important: the paladin tanks, the cleric keeps us alive, my ranger does steady, regular damage, the rogue is extremely mobile and destroys individual targets, and the warlock is our pseudo-controller.

That said, anyone who thinks controllers aren't useful hasn't played with an Invoker. We ran the first adventure of Scales of War with one and he was probably the MVP of the adventure.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Yeah, controllers...too bad all their best effects hurt your allies, as I've been saying. If you can catch 3+ enemies in one spell while simultaneously not harming your buddies every time you cast, then yes, you can surpass striker damage. Also, if I guess the correct 6 numbers, I can win the lottery.

PS...why does everyone think only a balanced party can use teamwork and strategy? Why can't strikers do this, too?

 

[tiornys]

Yeah, controllers...too bad all their best effects hurt your allies, as I've been saying. If you can catch 3+ enemies in one spell while simultaneously not harming your buddies every time you cast, then yes, you can surpass striker damage. Also, if I guess the correct 6 numbers, I can win the lottery.

Good teamwork obviously improves the odds of this happening, as does winning initiative. Plus, you only need to catch two targets to be about equal to striker damage, and that's not hard in most fights.

PS...why does everyone think only a balanced party can use teamwork and strategy? Why can't strikers do this, too?

Clearly they can. In fact, I think they have to in order to have any chance at surviving hard encounters or encounters where the initial conditions are unfavorable. Still, Strikers may be great at adapting to any given battlefield, but Defenders can define a battlefield and Controllers can completely rewrite it. These options lend themselves to more complex and rewarding strategies than those available to an all-Striker force.

t~

 

[Pickles JG]

Good teamwork obviously improves the odds of this happening, as does winning initiative. Plus, you only need to catch two targets to be about equal to striker damage, and that's not hard in most fights.~

I have found it hard to both gain flanking & avoid getting in the way of the AOEs but assuming you can sort this out it is true.
Remember Sorcerers are Strikers too & do the best AOE damage & also that damage split over 2 targets is less good than the same damage concentrated on one. (About 80% as good in my estimation)

Clearly they can. In fact, I think they have to in order to have any chance at surviving hard encounters or encounters where the initial conditions are unfavorable. Still, Strikers may be great at adapting to any given battlefield, but Defenders can define a battlefield and Controllers can completely rewrite it. These options lend themselves to more complex and rewarding strategies than those available to an all-Striker force.
t~

This I guess - striker tactics are mostly focus fire & get combat advantage with a bit of run away thrown in. Other roles (especially controllers & controllery defenders) have more complex options.

I do not know if you mean that the strategies are more rewarding in that they give better outcomes or that they are more rewarding in that they give the same outcomes but with a greater sense of acheivement from having done so with weaker resources.
In MTG terms I think the mixed party appeals to Johnny (combo guy) & the all striker one to Spike (wants to win - I may have the names wrong). Timmy is probably not a good team player but likes it if he hits with his daily - he may be a striker fan too?

 

[Pickles JG]

A wizard's damage output can easily surpass that of a striker. It won't be concentrated on a single target, but it will be more total damage. Add in some crippling combinations of status effects and a couple of single target damage dealers to finish off weakened enemies, and I can easily see how a party with multiple controllers might work extremely well.
t~

I do not think you get both lots of damage (even spread out) & crippling status effects in the same powers wizards seem to have to choose between these.

 

[tiornys]

I have found it hard to both gain flanking & avoid getting in the way of the AOEs but assuming you can sort this out it is true.

Flanking on the diagonal allows an AoE to hit the enemy, although in my experience the target being flanked is often ignored by the controller, who hinders and weakens the rest of the enemy while the flanked enemy gets dead.

Remember Sorcerers are Strikers too & do the best AOE damage & also that damage split over 2 targets is less good than the same damage concentrated on one. (About 80% as good in my estimation)

I haven't done a detailed analysis of the Sorcerer, but my glance-through suggested that their AoE's were smaller and had weaker effects than controller AoE's.

This I guess - striker tactics are mostly focus fire & get combat advantage with a bit of run away thrown in. Other roles (especially controllers & controllery defenders) have more complex options.

I do not know if you mean that the strategies are more rewarding in that they give better outcomes or that they are more rewarding in that they give the same outcomes but with a greater sense of acheivement from having done so with weaker resources.

More rewarding because they give better outcomes against adverse conditions and similar outcomes against favorable ones.

In MTG terms I think the mixed party appeals to Johnny (combo guy) & the all striker one to Spike (wants to win - I may have the names wrong). Timmy is probably not a good team player but likes it if he hits with his daily - he may be a striker fan too?

I don't think the roles are closely tied to those archetypes; any role can give any archetype what it wants. But some roles may be more appealing to some archetypes.

Timmy is there for the experience, so he wants to play a character that helps him experience things. If he's looking to experience combat stuff, he'll probably gravitate toward Striker or Defender; if he's looking to experience RP stuff, he probably has no preference.

Johnny is there to express himself, so he want to play a character that lets him do that. If he's expressing himself through combat, Leaders and Controllers offer the best possibilities for in-game improvisation. If not, again, he probably won't prefer any role.

Spike is there to prove himself. He's the most likely to be looking at combat for his proving ground, and I think he'll gravitate toward Strikers for their efficiency (these are the Spikes that play beatdown in Magic) or Controllers for their ability to dictate the battle (and these are the Spikes who play Islands). However, if he thinks group balance is a good thing, he'll be willing to play any role (and he'll know how to optimize for any role).

In terms of group dynamics, Timmy will only care that everyone is enjoying themselves, Johnny will be more concerned with how to make a given party work than with whether it will work, so it's Spike who will care most about the composition of the party, and what kind of composition he thinks will work will depend on his theories about how the game works.

I do not think you get both lots of damage (even spread out) & crippling status effects in the same powers wizards seem to have to choose between these.

Well, let's see. Thunderwave is probably the best at-will effect, and it's competitive on damage. Color Spray gives up a d6, as does Prismatic Burst. Crushing Titan's Fist also gives up about a d6. I suppose if you equate giving up a d6 to no longer doing lots of damage, then sure, for encounter powers. Daily's are wonky; Sleep obviously does no damage, but Stinking Cloud averages more damage than Fireball, and so does Prismatic Beams over Blast of Cold.

t~

 

[Trevelyan]

Yeah, controllers...too bad all their best effects hurt your allies, as I've been saying. If you can catch 3+ enemies in one spell while simultaneously not harming your buddies every time you cast, then yes, you can surpass striker damage. Also, if I guess the correct 6 numbers, I can win the lottery.

Catching 3+ enemies is pretty easy. I rarely target less than that with scorching burst or thunderwave, and never less than that with encounter or daily spells. Last night I caught six enemies in range of fire shroud and actually hit four of them. If I'm forced to target only 2 enemies it's usually because the DM has rather obligingly split them ito smaller groups to avoid my AoE attacks, which doesn't bother me in the slightest as it only helps the rest of the party pick on lone individuals.

There is no single trick, everything from winning initiative to having the defenders rack them up for you to making good use of the enlarge spell feat helps.

Now what easy solutions do you have for picking those winning lottery numbers?

PS...why does everyone think only a balanced party can use teamwork and strategy? Why can't strikers do this, too?

Strikers can and should. BUt the range of available tactics is more limited when you have fewer options available other than just damage. And while strikers might have some movement or status effects, and all striker party has far fewer such powers than a mixed party.

 

[Pbartender]

PS...why does everyone think only a balanced party can use teamwork and strategy? Why can't strikers do this, too?

I don't think everyone is saying that...

For my part, I was only suggesting that, from my perspective and personal experience, a party of strikers is easier to run without teamwork and succeed than a balanced party is, but that a balanced party using good teamwork and tactics can feasibly equal or even outperform a party of strikers.

Much of this will, of course, depend on the players themselves, and their preferred style of play.

 

[Ryujin]

You know, I just realized that our party also has three Strikers. Guess I'm a bit slow

We've got my Feylock (a bit Controllery/leadery, especially since multi-classing into Bard), am Archer Ranger, and a thuggish Rogue (big on charging). I don't do great damage, but I have status effects and can set the Rogue up with combat advantage or put him in a convenient charging spot, if he's being at all co-operative. The Rogue has been known to do critical damage over 70, when all of his charging bonuses and combat advantage come into play. Usually he doesn't co-operate though, which results in him being pounded down to under 10 hits in a couple of rounds. The Ranger might as well be the patron god of hunters, with the sort of ranged damage that he can do.

That leaves us with a Cleric who is big on ranged and radiant, and a Battlerager fighter. The usual M.O. is that we get the fighter into melee to lock down the toughest opponent first then try to pound it into submission from range, while the Rogue wanders around wondering why he's getting pasted so badly. After a couple of rounds he's running for cover, but has likely kicked a hundred+ damage into the mix, and the Ranger is surrounded by lesser opponents. This is about the time when I usually Fey Switch one of the others out of the fire, then try to lock down his opponents for a round by using Otherwind Stride to get my own butt clear.

Darned near every combat follows a similar pattern. The Rogue ignores my ability to drop him virtually anywhere on the combat map until he needs a save, or the Ranger backs himself into a corner and gets beaten on, needing a rescue. He hasn't figured out yet that just because he CAN range on virtually every opponent from the furthest point on the map, that doesn't necessarily make it the best location to do it from. I've sniped from rooftops in a town, the tops of trees, on big rocks, in buildings...... Anything that will make the opposition have to work a little harder to get to me, until I teleport again to spoil their fun.