Homebrew Alchemy Crafting?

[Folji]

Hey! So I'm the DM of a pretty regular tabletop group, as well as occasionally DMing for other groups on occasions, and my core party started playing D&D 5th Edition a while ago. So far it's going pretty well, everyone's enjoying it, I'm certainly enjoying the streamlined feel of it all and thinking it is pretty great to keep track of.

Not that long ago, though, one of the players asked me about the system for crafting and performing alchemy in the game, as they were considering dabbling in that. They like crafting in RPGs, and so do I personally. Crafting is probably one of my favourite parts of any RPG.

The crafting in D&D 5th Edition, though, I'm honestly not that impressed. Least of all for alchemical crafting. I mean, is it really supposed to be so that a character can do 5g of crafting per day, taking them some average of 10 days just to craft a healing potion?

Then I read about an alchemy variant rule on the D&D wiki, which does seem decent at a cursory glance, though I'm feeling inspired to try and homebrew something of my own.

So I'm wondering, what opinions do people have on crafting alchemy and suchlike? In what way do people reckon it should work?

As I'm thinking it, I'd personally like to arrange an alchemy homebrew that works with different ingredients having different properties. Such as, an ingredient would have a set number of potential qualities, of which at least one of them need to be matched with a different ingredient for the potion to work. It's a setup I've always felt worked pretty well for the Elder Scrolls series, and it has a lot of room for experimentation and a sense of the character actually dabbling with ingredients to find the best combination of them--as opposed to just having a checklist of what has to go into, say, a healing potion.

Alternatively, I'm imagining something similar to the alchemy variant rule I linked to, but expanded upon with a wider variety of ingredients and effects. Though I'm still thinking effects triggered by their (generally unknown) presence on the ingredients would be the easiest way to make an alchemy system that's interesting for the player to tinker with. Two ingredients together might combine well for a particular effect, but throwing in a third could easily catalyse an unexpected side-effect depending on the combination.

But before I go off on a tangent and just start rambling. I'm looking for opinions, thoughts, ideas? Is it something that could work? If not, what could make it work? Are there homebrews like this already out there? What would be the best way to balance it, and what kind of effects and ingredients would fit the game?

First and foremost I'm planning to write it all as a personal homebrew, to make crafting a more interesting component of my own D&D sessions, though if other people would be interested in using it I'd love to share it around!

 

[Redthistle]

Regarding potions, you might want to check out this website for herbs in RPGs:

http://www.republicofnewhome.org/lair/games/herb5/herb5illo.html

It is merely a coincidence that the above link is a 5th edition also; that does not relate to the current iteration of D&D editions.

Crafting magical items is one of those things that WotC, from what I've read, treated lightly in 5e with the idea in mind that it would provide DMs more latitude to do exactly what you're thinking of: home-brewing it to shape your game's needs.

My only suggestion is to follow Oscar Wilde's notion: "Good writers borrow; great writers steal." Review what other games have done in the line of alchemy and artifice: take what you like and pare it down to fit 5e level/power balance.

 

[Folji]

Regarding potions, you might want to check out this website for herbs in RPGs:

http://www.republicofnewhome.org/lair/games/herb5/herb5illo.html

Ohh, that looks like a fantastic reference. Thanks a lot! Definitely going to use it for inspiration, see what can come out of it all.

And you're probably right, some elements of the game were likely designed with the frame of mind that the community would homebrew parts of it. Or just wing it. Handle situations as they go.

I'm already getting pretty far along with drafting up an alchemy system, hoping to have something up soon enough so people can actually read through it. And playing around with thoughts for enchanting as well.

 

[steeldragons]

Keep in mind that alchemy, really, was not herbalism, but dealt -more so- with metals and minerals more often than not. So things like mercury, iron/gold/silver shavings, lead, chalk, salt, powered/powdering gems and different types of stone, the electrical/conductive properties of iron/copper/gold, to mix with acids or oils or water or whatnot.

If this is something that will be interesting and fun for your players, then go nuts. I would be more inclined to keep it simple: X amount of down time + Y gp worth of these various materials yields Z material/potion. With some allowance for doing "more time for less money or more money for less time" Producing nothing that is more than comparable to an uncommon potion/magic item.

The details of it all are really something for individual tables to enjoy. Glossing over the actual details of the materials and process to get to the story is something i would be more inclined to do. Not saying "handwave the month it takes you to produce this"! By all means, ROLE PLAY the downtime! But role play what the characters are doing...which materials they have to hunt down and use and how its prepared and all of that...not so necessary (unless it's a particularly rare material/compound they might need to have a whole separate adventure for...in which case, your "downtime" activity will be interrupted/need to cease).

 

[77IM]

Well I had a tangentially-related thread here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?428545-What-can-you-make-with-Alchemist-s-Tools


Now, to circumvent your rambling, let me ask:
How do you foresee this playing out at the table?

Do your players want a big complex list of alchemical substances and interactions that they have to decode like it is a puzzle?

Are they going to collect ingredients randomly (like, looting monster parts or finding rare gems) and then look at the list of alchemy options and say, "Oh hey, we just got dragon bile and a star sapphire, so I think we can make a batch of potions of fire breath..."

Or are the players going to get creative about what they want to make, and then will they want to go hunting for ingredients to make it?


There's no wrong answers here. Just, the #1 rule of game rule design is, think about the game-play experience you want, and come up with rules that serve and encourage that experience. So figure out how your players want to approach alchemy (making bombs? making love potions? making superglue? making whatever they can with the ingredients they just found?) and work backwards from there.

(No matter what you do, I think you will find that you are right about crafting time. You're going to want to speed that up drastically. Expensive or hard-to-find ingredients are a great way to do this, as it prevents the alchemist from becoming super-rich by brewing potions quickly.)

 

[Folji]

Well I had a tangentially-related thread here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?428545-What-can-you-make-with-Alchemist-s-Tools


Now, to circumvent your rambling, let me ask:
How do you foresee this playing out at the table?

Do your players want a big complex list of alchemical substances and interactions that they have to decode like it is a puzzle?

Are they going to collect ingredients randomly (like, looting monster parts or finding rare gems) and then look at the list of alchemy options and say, "Oh hey, we just got dragon bile and a star sapphire, so I think we can make a batch of potions of fire breath..."

Thanks! I've asked myself this question, and that first segment is essentially the way I want to go about it. My personal view of crafting as a "fun" mechanic is to not tell the player "to make this item, you need these materials". Instead, I want to tell them, "you have these materials, what do you want to try and make with them?". The key question here being try, and therein to experiment.

I want to try and set up a simple, easy-to-use alchemy system that encourages experimentation. So you've got a handful of marigold petals, some thorn apple seeds, powdered bone-marrow of a raised skeleton, amethyst fragments, silver dust, just to mention a few examples. You've got the alchemical base to make two potions, and two vials to keep them in. Which ingredients do you try to combine, and what are you hoping to make?

That's essentially the kind of alchemy system I want to try and make. I want to veer away from making the base concept too complex, make some aspects of it alternative rules that the DM would be free to filter out at their own behest, but at the heart of it all would simply well be the idea that different ingredients have different properties. The player experiments with these ingredients to try and achieve different effects, with the gratification of fruitful experimentation.

 

[Redthistle]

It has been my experience that only a few players in my games are interested in this sort of creative play. Because of that, the other players are less impressed with including it at the gaming table.

My solution has been to have those who want this included to pursue most of it before-&-after general game-play. We discuss it and address any questions by email.

We work out ahead of time the number of items they forage or purchase by dicing out what's available in the setting.

They work on their creations between game sessions, present me what they've come up with long enough before a game session that we can discuss and work out how it may affect game balance.

Finally, I apply the amount of time it took to complete their creation(s) and decide what else will have developed in the adventure setting during during that time, let the non-inventing players know that their PCs had that much time to pursue other activities, and then dive into the active game session.

 

[nomotog]

I think your on about the right track for what you want to do. One thought I have is don't sweat the small stuff. That is don't put too much focus on like the skill check, cost or time factors. Keep all of that simple because it's not very interesting. Like don't try and to tie time it takes to the cost or anything like that. keep it simple simple. You can do 1 or two potions a day, 10 potions per kit ect. That is not the important part.

You idea is a good one. I messed around with crafting systems and I ended up landing on something like it*. The idea is to give the player these items and have them think of creative ways they can use use them. It wouldn't be too hard to make out a list of herbs and give them each two or more properties like key words. (Maybe a more fluffy story approach.) Then you have your players mixing up what they have to get the best out of it. Finally you assign some benefits and penalties based on what they use. (Maybe try to keep that simple too.)

A another idea I have would be to give each herb a detail that makes harvesting or using it hard. Maybe one root is always on fire when it's in the air, another might be invisible during the day. It is just something fun to put in an extra wrinkle to using them.


* I wanted to make up a crafting system to represent the kind of duck tape zombie crafting you see in zombie settings. I wanted there to be a high ammout of creativity involved with players improvising and imagining as they went along. The basic rules are simple. Each item has a loose set of requirements (a blade needs a something sharp you know) and the players can use anything that makes at least some sense. Then the resulting item gets one advantage and one disadvantage based on what was used to craft it. If you craft a med-kit out of homeopathic meds, then it gets an advantage to treat sickness, but a disadvantage to treat cuts. I then compounded that idea with a scavenging system that was geared to give exotic items. (You had a bonus when looking for items not needed to survive and if you failed, then there was a chance your would find a item that was kind of like what you wanted.)

 

[Folji]

Snip

From what it sounds like, that does build itself on the crafting and all happening with a meta-level determination of what is being crafted and how it works in? In such a situation I can imagine it taking quite some time that would be best not taken up while playing.

Hopefully, I'll be able to put something together that doesn't really call for anything that needs to be thought up or handled mid-play though. In terms of game mechanics, I want the gathering and crafting both to essentially be as simple as skill checks and unseen DM rolls. I don't want the act of a character gathering reagents to be more time-consuming than interacting with an object, and I don't want the alchemical research to not be any more of a hassle than it is to roll on the Carousing table (for instance). That's the ideal here, quick, simple and streamlined, but open for the player to experiment and explore.

Keep in mind that alchemy, really, was not herbalism, but dealt -more so- with metals and minerals more often than not. So things like mercury, iron/gold/silver shavings, lead, chalk, salt, powered/powdering gems and different types of stone, the electrical/conductive properties of iron/copper/gold, to mix with acids or oils or water or whatnot.

Editing just to throw this in! It's a good point though, yeah, alchemy as how it actually was really was a lot more about experimenting with precious metals than it was a matter of mixing herbs. There's a clear distinction at hand here, though at the same time it's pretty amusing how alchemy as a concept in fantasy RPGs as a whole has essentially turned into mixing things to make potions.

Metals and minerals still definitely play a role as far as materials go, at least. I feel as though it's turning to a certain divide in types of materials here, with herbs, creature parts, and minerals respectively. To define it loosely, I guess. Reading through others' thoughts and ideas on the topic really helps painting a better picture on how it call could be done in a good way!

 

[77IM]

Thanks! I've asked myself this question, and that first segment is essentially the way I want to go about it. My personal view of crafting as a "fun" mechanic is to not tell the player "to make this item, you need these materials". Instead, I want to tell them, "you have these materials, what do you want to try and make with them?". The key question here being try, and therein to experiment.

I want to try and set up a simple, easy-to-use alchemy system that encourages experimentation. So you've got a handful of marigold petals, some thorn apple seeds, powdered bone-marrow of a raised skeleton, amethyst fragments, silver dust, just to mention a few examples. You've got the alchemical base to make two potions, and two vials to keep them in. Which ingredients do you try to combine, and what are you hoping to make?

That's essentially the kind of alchemy system I want to try and make. I want to veer away from making the base concept too complex, make some aspects of it alternative rules that the DM would be free to filter out at their own behest, but at the heart of it all would simply well be the idea that different ingredients have different properties. The player experiments with these ingredients to try and achieve different effects, with the gratification of fruitful experimentation.

This is very coherent approach. If I were your player I would want to a) have some rough idea what the ingredients do, b) be able to experiment without "using up" valuable ingredients, and c) be rewarded for experimentation: unknown combos should be more potent than known combos.

For example, maybe every ingredient can be used for a base effect (like "it's a potion of resistance" or "it's a potion of Strength") or used for enhancement (like "doubles duration"). And the base effect and most common enhancement are well-known, so just making an Intelligence (Arcana or alchemist's tools) check tells you what those are. But you can also use the ingredient as an uncommon enhancement, and there's no good way to know what you will get until you try it -- but it will always be better than the common enhancement. That's just an example of how experimentation can be "rewarding" rather than "required."

I'm curious to see what you come up with. I like your analogy of "no harder than rolling on the Carousing table." I can imagine some players going nuts trying to reverse-engineer what the chart behind the DM's screen looks like. ;}