D&D 5E [Homebrew] Greater Produce Flame

I gotta say, all you seem to have done is create a spell that could be called Produce Torchlight, and has a weird side effect of making the produce flame cantrip more awkward to use (adding in having to use a bonus action).

If you want a spell to light your way, why not just recreate the light cantrip?

Flavor mostly. I don't have a problem with the premise of Produce Flame just the execution. I also agree with the designers to give druids Produce Flame instead of Light and Flame bolt which would be the same thing but better in many ways. That is why I didn't suggest changing the Produce Flame cantrip but instead recommend a 1 level spell to enhance it so there is a cost. It would basically be as good as 2 cantrips other wise. I also don't think use a bonus action to load is as awkward or a complicated as people are saying. It is also necessary to create a cost to justify the duration. With that said the other option is to make it concentration and not require the bonus action, but that is over used and crippling for being able to carry a torch as a spell. The point (like the light spell) is to have a magical, reusable light source that in place of a torch. It is also, an attack spell which complicates it however it does give it some unique flavor. Though, granted needing to select a 1st level spell to make it as good as two other cantrips hurts druid selection, it does make Druids an option for reliable light.
 

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War Clarics can attack a second time as a bonus action
Fighters don't get an attack until level 2, but they do get a bonus action heal
Warlocks cast Hex as a bonus action, which adds a 1d6 of damage to there action attack on the same turn which is as much damage as a short sword strike.
Druids, use Shillelagh as a bonus action to increase damage.
Any 2 handed finesse fighter can use and off hand weapon and that is not a feat.

All healers (Druid, Cleric, and Bard) all use healing word as a bonus action

Bards, give inspiration as a bonus action

If you add this to your list of Monks, Paladins, Rangers, and Feats your not leave many who don't have many classes that don't have bonus actions. Again this is off the top of my head not a full list. I don't think avoiding bonus actions to reduce complication at a lower level is a valid argument. Though some of your other points make more ground.

I don't think you're grokking what I'm saying.

Let me go through your examples and explain how those are different from your proposed 24-hour no-concentration 1st-level produce flame bonus action variant...

Cleric - War Domain - War Priest 1st level feature
This lets you make a weapon attack as a bonus action Wisdom modifier #times/long rest. You could sacred flame (action) and weapon attack (bonus action), for example. This is different from what you suggest in 3 ways:
  1. Your produce flame could let you use a cantrip (action) + produce flame (bonus action). Letting a PC use two spells on their turn for a 1st level slot (whose effect is ongoing without concentration) is unquestionably OP.
  2. Your produce flame relies on your primary attribute. A War Domain Cleric is relying either on Strength or Dexterity (secondary attributes).
  3. Your produce flame is better because there's no limit on #times you can throw the flame as a bonus action. 24 hours is a long long time, easily letting you surpass the War Priest feature.

Not the same.

Fighter - Second Wind 2nd level feature
Second Wind is a an ability wholly unique to the Fighter - no other class gets bonus action healing, so it's a poor example to choose as a comparison because it's apples-to-oranges. If we do compare them, however, we see that Second Wind is limited by requiring a short or long rest. Your produce flame, however, lasts for 24 hours.

Not the same.

Warlock - 1st level hex spell
There's a difference between "bonus action to cast" and "bonus action to make an attack with an ongoing spell." With hex, the +1d6 damage is limited by concentration (1 hour). I think it's very telling of how OP your produce flame variant is, that hex lasts for 24 hours if cast with a 5th level spell slot (and even then still requires concentration).

Not the same.

Druid - shillelagh cantrip
Shillelagh is the best comparison of those you gave IMO. It empowers a staff to deal d8 instead of d6, makes it magical, and lets you use your Wisdom instead of Strength. It does NOT let you make a bonus action attack, however. Your sacred flame lets you make a bonus action attack dealing 1d8 damage.

Not the same.

It's also worth noting that hex is a Warlock-only spell & shillelagh is a Druid-only spell that is hard for other PCs to get without using optional rules like feats/multiclassing. This point is more subjective, but I suspect it has to do with the party roles the designers were trying to steer certain classes toward. YMMV about whether that's important in your games.​

Ultimately, everyone has to find the metric for balance that works at their table. A casual group not too concerned with balance could allow your version, likely without it rocking the boat too much. Personally, I would not use it in my games without toning it down.
 

I think you're misunderstanding darkvision. Darkvision turns natural darkness into black and white dim light within the specified range. Low-light vision would extend the range of light sources.

The druid is not the fighter's light source. If the group needs absolutely only one light source that comes and goes, then they can ready actions to attack when you activate your produce flame.

I stand corrected, its just my DM that does that and I forget but per:

PHB p185
Darkvision
Many creatures in the worlds of D&D, especially those that dwell underground, have darkvision. Within a specified range, a creature with darkvision can see in darkness as if the darkness w ere dim light, so areas of darkness are only lightly obscured as far as that creature is concerned. However, the creature can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.

As far as reading an action to attack when the druids light comes on, it cost every player their reaction and action each turn. It also limits what they can do since they can not move and perform an action. They can also only make the action they hold for which means enemies can move away in the darkness without attacks of opportunity and your allies basically lose there turn. Ultimately, if they don't have darkvision (because they took human variant, etc) They are fighting with sword and shield and ask you to be there light since you have that Produce Flame cantrip you can't do anything because it your holding staff as a focus and a flame you don't want to put out in the other hand. Or you can say to hell with your allies I am soloing it and dowse the light anyway. Also, they can't hold there turn if I am before them in the initiative order, they would just lose a turn.
 

I don't think you're grokking what I'm saying.

Let me go through your examples and explain how those are different from your proposed 24-hour no-concentration 1st-level produce flame bonus action variant...

Cleric - War Domain - War Priest 1st level feature
This lets you make a weapon attack as a bonus action Wisdom modifier #times/long rest. You could sacred flame (action) and weapon attack (bonus action), for example. This is different from what you suggest in 3 ways:
  1. Your produce flame could let you use a cantrip (action) + produce flame (bonus action). Letting a PC use two spells on their turn for a 1st level slot (whose effect is ongoing without concentration) is unquestionably OP.
  2. Your produce flame relies on your primary attribute. A War Domain Cleric is relying either on Strength or Dexterity (secondary attributes).
  3. Your produce flame is better because there's no limit on #times you can throw the flame as a bonus action. 24 hours is a long long time, easily letting you surpass the War Priest feature.

Not the same.

Fighter - Second Wind 2nd level feature
Second Wind is a an ability wholly unique to the Fighter - no other class gets bonus action healing, so it's a poor example to choose as a comparison because it's apples-to-oranges. If we do compare them, however, we see that Second Wind is limited by requiring a short or long rest. Your produce flame, however, lasts for 24 hours.

Not the same.

Warlock - 1st level hex spell
There's a difference between "bonus action to cast" and "bonus action to make an attack with an ongoing spell." With hex, the +1d6 damage is limited by concentration (1 hour). I think it's very telling of how OP your produce flame variant is, that hex lasts for 24 hours if cast with a 5th level spell slot (and even then still requires concentration).

Not the same.

Druid - shillelagh cantrip
Shillelagh is the best comparison of those you gave IMO. It empowers a staff to deal d8 instead of d6, makes it magical, and lets you use your Wisdom instead of Strength. It does NOT let you make a bonus action attack, however. Your sacred flame lets you make a bonus action attack dealing 1d8 damage.

Not the same.

It's also worth noting that hex is a Warlock-only spell & shillelagh is a Druid-only spell that is hard for other PCs to get without using optional rules like feats/multiclassing. This point is more subjective, but I suspect it has to do with the party roles the designers were trying to steer certain classes toward. YMMV about whether that's important in your games.​

Ultimately, everyone has to find the metric for balance that works at their table. A casual group not too concerned with balance could allow your version, likely without it rocking the boat too much. Personally, I would not use it in my games without toning it down.

You Said, "At a minimum, the PHB seems to put off dealing damage as a bonus action till 2nd-level spells with heat metal and spiritual weapon (or, as is the case with majority of spells of this kind, till 3rd or 5th).

I'm not sure about balance reasons for setting it up this way, but I can think of a gameplay reason: Simplicity. Not wanting to overload new players with too much too soon"

1. Put off dealing damage from bonus action until 2nd level spells, -- Not true
--- War Priest , Off hand attack, Hex, Monk Martial Arts, Paladins,
2. Simplicity, Not using Bonus actions at early levels. -- Not true
--- Everything under #1 + All healers (Druid, Cleric, and Bard) all use healing word as a bonus action, Fighter Action surge, shillelagh

Both show by the examples you listed above.

Also, you don't seem to understand how my spell works. It does not grant you an attack as a bonus action.

You take an action to cast Produce Flame (turn 1)
You take an action to cast Improved Produce Flame (turn 2)
You take a bonus action to split Produce Flame (turn 2)
You take an action to attack with Second Flame (turn 3)

Each turn after you can use a bonus action to split then attack with second flame using your action, so that you have a continual light source. It is still only a single 1d8 attack.

Optionally, you COULD use a bonus action on turn 3 to also through the original Flame ending the spell but that would be dump because you just spent 3 turns and a first level spell slot to get 2 attack where you could have attacked 3 times with the same cantrip and done more damage....

If you were walking around with the flame split in both hands, you could through them both on the same turn for 2d8 (ending the spell) and leaving your self in darkness

--Or with the same first level spell slot you could cast:
Ice Knife 1d10 + 2d6 AoE damage
Thunder Wave 2d8 AoE with knock back
Or a number of arguably more powerful spells.

This setup is not really any more powerful than the 2 can trips 4 classes can do but requires a 1st level spell.
Light/Fire Bolt - Wizard/Sorcerer
Light/Thunderclap - Bard
Light/Sacred Flame - Cleric
 

This setup is not really any more powerful than the 2 can trips 4 classes can do but requires a 1st level spell.
Light/Fire Bolt - Wizard/Sorcerer
Light/Thunderclap - Bard
Light/Sacred Flame - Cleric

You missed "produce flame/produce flame - druid", which is really the thing that makes your spell obsolete. Just cast produce flame once for light and once when you want to attack...
 

You missed "produce flame/produce flame - druid", which is really the thing that makes your spell obsolete. Just cast produce flame once for light and once when you want to attack...

You can't do that per the spell description.

"The spell ends if you dismiss it as an action or if you cast it again."
 
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Yuck. I'd just errata that bit out.

Not a bad alternate, but you still can't do it if your carrying anything in your other hand. The spell also says , "A flickering flame appears in your hand. The flame remains there for the duration and harms neither you nor your equipment."

My idea is basically, a work around to that you can place it on a staff and cast it twice. I did not want it to be a crippling concentration spell but since it would be as powerful as 2 cantrips that already exist I figured it would need some cost (even though really you can use both Light and Flame bolt at the same time with no real cost). So I figured it should be a first level spell. Then, I didn't want it to be a spell drain at low levels when you can't afford it so I gave it a long duration, so its kind of a once a day thing which makes it worth it to me. Then I realized your also losing a prepared spell which you would not if you had light and Flame bolt. So I figured giving the option to use a bonus action to attack with the original flame gives is a non-scalable damage bonus which will make it slightly more tempting at low levels but is unimportant at higher levels where burning a level 1 slot is not a big deal. Of course letting a level 1 druid cast 2 every round would be way over powered at starting levels and defeat the point of splitting it so that's why it ends the spell.
 

I would say that removing the phrase "although doing so ends the spell" does what you want, and makes essentially no change to the balance of the spell.
 

Not a bad alternate, but you still can't do it if your carrying anything in your other hand. The spell also says , "A flickering flame appears in your hand. The flame remains there for the duration and harms neither you nor your equipment."

Other classes have to give up a hand to carry a torch, or spend a cantrip on light.
 

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