D&D 5E [Homebrew] Greater Produce Flame

Other classes have to give up a hand to carry a torch, or spend a cantrip on light.

Spending a cantrip on light is not really giving up anything because it last an hour...

Almost, half the classes don't need a torch and I largely want this so that the classes that would or the classes that can't don't have to because the Druid has the light source covered.
 

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Again, your not wrong that it still a better solution than as is. However, light does not require the Wizard, Cleric, Bard, or Sorcerer stop using a hand. I would like this to help the team without hurting the caster in a persistent way.

For the cost of a first level spell to cover the function of a cantrip and to still be able to use one of the classes primary (cantrip / fall back) attacks doesn't seem to hurt balance as far as I can tell. If your group doesn't need it you wouldn't pick it. I am worried about a loop hole for balance, but I don't see one in the posts mentioned so far. A few misunderstanding on how it works. So maybe it could use a bit of rewording but then again sage advice exists for clarifying such things in the core rule book. It would be surprising for me to get it 100% on a first attempt.
 

Spending a cantrip on light is not really giving up anything because it last an hour...

Almost, half the classes don't need a torch and I largely want this so that the classes that would or the classes that can't don't have to because the Druid has the light source covered.

What I mean by "spending a cantrip" is spending one of your cantrips known choices.
 

What I mean by "spending a cantrip" is spending one of your cantrips known choices.

Oh, sorry. I did take that differently.

With that said, you would be taking a 1st level Spell preparation which would be a similar cost. It could be considered cheaper though since Druids can change all there spells as part of a long rest and already know them all. So they don't waste "learning" a 1st level spell slot and can discard it when they know they will not need it for 24 hours.

I do feel like the 1st level spell slot usage levels.
 

Oh, sorry. I did take that differently.

With that said, you would be taking a 1st level Spell preparation which would be a similar cost. It could be considered cheaper though since Druids can change all there spells as part of a long rest and already know them all. So they don't waste "learning" a 1st level spell slot and can discard it when they know they will not need it for 24 hours.

I do feel like the 1st level spell slot usage levels.

Eh, you get far more prepared spells than you get cantrips. A 1st level wizard has 4 prepared spells and 3 cantrips known. A 10th level wizard has 15 prepared spells and 5 cantrips known. Cantrips are a tight commodity.

Now, expending a 1st level spell slot for light plus a moderate ongoing damage attack wouldn't be unbalanced. But take a look at the level jump between "Light" and "Daylight". Clearly, the designers thought that a handless light is worth quite a bit. Daylight doesn't even harm undead; it's only additional rider is dispelling darkness spells of 3rd level or lower.

So, a lower level daylight that also gives you an attack doesn't seem in line with what the designers thought were balanced options. I'm not one to say the designers can't make mistakes, I'm just looking at what they have for guidance here.
 

Eh, you get far more prepared spells than you get cantrips. A 1st level wizard has 4 prepared spells and 3 cantrips known. A 10th level wizard has 15 prepared spells and 5 cantrips known. Cantrips are a tight commodity.

Now, expending a 1st level spell slot for light plus a moderate ongoing damage attack wouldn't be unbalanced. But take a look at the level jump between "Light" and "Daylight". Clearly, the designers thought that a handless light is worth quite a bit. Daylight doesn't even harm undead; it's only additional rider is dispelling darkness spells of 3rd level or lower.

So, a lower level daylight that also gives you an attack doesn't seem in line with what the designers thought were balanced options. I'm not one to say the designers can't make mistakes, I'm just looking at what they have for guidance here.

So first its not just the 1st level spell, its also the cantrip. That is deliberate.

Secondly, There is a bit more to consider here:
coverage bright/dim: light 20/40, Daylight 60/120, Produce Flame has 10/20
Can be cast on object: light/Daylight (My change only allows you to cast it on specific items or where you stand at the cost of a level 1 prepared spell and spell slot)
Can be covered to hide: light/Daylight
Can dissipate the level 2 spell darkness: Daylight
("it's only additional rider is dispelling darkness spells of 3rd level or lower." That's a huge rider since Darkness is a level 2 spell and will normally be cast at base, though warlocks will cast it at a higher level by design)
Can be dispelled by darkness: light/Produce Flame (That's right, you can't use the attack at all if in darkness because the spell is strait up ended before it is cast every time.)
--Per Sage advice cantrips can not be cast at a higher level because they don't use spell slots (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/20/can-cantrip-be-cast-at-higher-spell-slot/)
Can be cast on enemies: light (glowing armor should make him easier to find in the dark)

The damage is not changing from the original spell, nor the light so your agreement that "lower level daylight that also gives you an attack doesn't seem in line with what the designers thought were balanced options." since Produce Flame already does both. I am raising the cost to separate the abilities not adding anything new.

In Reference to the "harm undead", Sage Advice has clarified Daylight does not count as sunlight and the difference is intended. So you are correct but I imagine it still causes fights, lol.
 

Flavor mostly. I don't have a problem with the premise of Produce Flame just the execution. I also agree with the designers to give druids Produce Flame instead of Light and Flame bolt which would be the same thing but better in many ways. That is why I didn't suggest changing the Produce Flame cantrip but instead recommend a 1 level spell to enhance it so there is a cost. It would basically be as good as 2 cantrips other wise. I also don't think use a bonus action to load is as awkward or a complicated as people are saying. It is also necessary to create a cost to justify the duration. With that said the other option is to make it concentration and not require the bonus action, but that is over used and crippling for being able to carry a torch as a spell. The point (like the light spell) is to have a magical, reusable light source that in place of a torch. It is also, an attack spell which complicates it however it does give it some unique flavor. Though, granted needing to select a 1st level spell to make it as good as two other cantrips hurts druid selection, it does make Druids an option for reliable light.

What I'm really getting at is all you're actually getting out of that 1st level slot is 24 hours of torchlight. That seems perfectly fine.

But then the spell goes and hampers the use of produce flame by requiring it to now use a bonus action in addition to the action to cast and attack.
 

Wouldn't this be simpler?

Clayton's Toggle Torch
Level 1 Conjuration
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S
Duration: 24 hours

As part of casting this spell, touch an object weighing five pounds or less that is either unattended or held by a willing creature. The object erupts with ghostly flames which provide illumination as a torch. The flames produce no heat and require no air.

For the duration of the spell, whenever you are within 30 feet of the object, you can extinguish or rekindle the flames with a gesture. Doing so counts as interacting with an object.



Then just cast produce flame if you want that too.
 
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