Originally posted by ciaran:
Introduction:
A tall man with a massive hammer across his back leans at the bar of a dingy tavern having a drink and a laugh with the barkeep. It is early in the day and there is a peace about the place. Some light splashes in as the front door opens and three grisly looking men enter. They look about for only a second and approach. “Where were you?” one with small tusks growls “We barely escaped! You were to be there!” The large man jingles some coin in his purse, levels his gaze at them, and says “I lied. I see you’re not all here…” “We’re here to collect for that debt. You didn’t show and now Mravis is in the river. You’re coming with us.” He turns to them and stands at his full height – a head taller than any of them – crossing his arms. “You’re in the wrong place to be making demands like that. Which one of you volunteers for the first kiss from Betsy?” he replies, tilting his head at his weapon. They make nervous glances at each other then depart silently.
That night he arrives at a bar in different part of town. He is here to meet a friend who hasn’t shown. “May as well have a drink. Who knows?” There are more people about – sailors in town, miners, craftsmen, wenches and scoundrels. Suddenly, a pair of arms wrap around him from behind and several fists begin pounding into his front! He’s been ambushed and he’s in for more than a black eye. With a roar, he finds his strength and throws them back a step. With a barstool in hand he brains the first one he makes out in the shadows. The body staggers back and he spins on another, dropping his heavy fist in his belly. Taking a nearby mug in hands he quickly looks about. They weren’t expecting such retaliation and have backed off. Swinging it about threateningly him he edges away.
A becloaked Halfling by the door whispers quickly “You’re handy in a fight! I’ve a wizard friend short on gold needing to leave town quickly. Our warrior friend met a gruesome end and we’re looking for another pair of hands. Interested in making some money?” Surprised, but interested, he nods. “Then I’ll find you. Mind the one to your left!” He hurls the mug at a man creeping along the wall and blood pours from the wound. In an instant our hero is gone and off to safer surroundings.
****
Adventures: The Brute is most at home in a large town or city where opportunities and excitement abound but is not about expanding his horizons and testing his daring. Nothing shakes up the ordinary or gets someone who is in trouble out of town like a hike through the wilderness or a dungeon crawl. There are bigger enemies and untold treasures to be found and the Brute is ready for them all.
Characteristics: The Brute is a primary combatant who, like the barbarian, relies on guts and thick skin rather than armor and is adept at using what is available to big to defeat those he opposes. He prefers blunt weaponry for availability and ease of use – besides it makes a great squishy sound when it breaks skin! He isn’t above less-than-honorable tactics, preferring to fighty down and dirty, charging directly into the fray. When a mace or club isn’t available, anything heavy and handy will suffice. Failing that, he knows how to kill with his bare hands. The sheer excitement he experiences from battle pushes him to survive the worst wounds. His strengths shine in life-or-death situations.
Alignment: The Brute is not so much inclined towards chaos as he is adverse to law. Life moves to quickly and has too many opportunities to be restricted to haughty codes of conduct and manners. And while they are not above using certain tactics against enemies or those who might have something they want, the Brute’s views on morality are his own. However, it is unlikely that even the evil Brute is set on much beyond his own needs and even the good Brute would not stick out his neck too far for someone else who didn’t really need help.
Religion: While some may worship Gods like Kord or Fharlanghn, and others perhaps Erythnul, most Brutes couldn’t be bothered with paying homage to a higher power.
Background: Most Brutes grew up poor and in rough areas where they learned to survive by being bigger, stronger or wilier than those who struggled just to get by. Some took to the path later in life because of the excitement of bar room brawls and back alley encounters.
Races: Most Brutes are of Human or Orcish decent, though some Dwarves who have rejected the rigidity of their people fall to it as well. Gnomes and Elves rarely take to it but more than one Halfling has left a tavern in ruins.
Other Classes: Brutes see classes like Fighters and Barbarians as capable combatants with their own unique and worthy skills, but lacking whatever savvy the Brute thinks he possesses. Many get along well with Rogues and Bards, seeing them as versatile and good allies to have. They aren’t much concerned with Rangers, Monks and Paladins but take each individually. In the case of primary spell casters such as Clerics and Wizards, the Brute appreciates the ones who take risks and have his back.
Role: In a standard party with a second martial combatant, the Brute’s ability to make a door where there isn’t one and survive the worst disasters leaves the other warrior room to specialize in perhaps archery of skirmishing, although a Barbarian and a Brute would make quite force to be reckoned with.
Ability Scores: Strength and Constitution are vital to this class, even though his talents help compensate when they are not as high as another’s. Although sharp mental faculties aren’t necessary, they are another tool available to him.
BRUTE
Alignment: Any non-lawful
Hit Die: d12
CLASS SKILLS
The brute’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis) and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Brawler, Thrill of a Fight
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Brute Force, Bonus Feat, Dirty Fighting
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Adrenaline Surge, Bully and a Liar
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Bludgeoning Specialization
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Ignore Fatigue, Blunt Heavy Objects
6 +6 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat, Mighty Blow
7 +7 +5 +2 +2 Damage Reduction 1/-
8 +8 +6 +2 +2 Improved Dirty Fighting
9 +9 +6 +3 +3 Improved Blunt Heavy Objects, Thrilling Charge
10 +10 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat, Damage Reduction 2/-
11 +11 +7 +3 +3 Improved Adrenaline Surge
12 +12 +8 +4 +4 Greater Blunt Heavy Objects
13 +13 +8 +4 +4 Damage Reduction 3/-, Shrug It Off
14 +14 +9 +4 +4 Bonus Feat, Greater Dirty Fighting
15 +15 +9 +5 +5 Improved Ignore Fatigue
16 +16 +10 +5 +5 Damage Reduction 4/-
17 +17 +10 +5 +5 Perfect Charge
18 +18 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat, Perfect Blunt Heavy Objects
19 +19 +11 +6 +6 Damage Reduction 5/-
20 +20 +12 +6 +6 Greater Adrenaline Surge, Greater Ignore Fatigue
CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are class features of the Brute.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Brute is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor and shields (not including tower shields).
Brawler (Ex): The Brute gains the Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat and deals 1d4 unarmed damage (as a medium creature).
Thrill of a Fight (Ex): Once per combat, on his turn following first taking damage from an enemy, the Brute gains a number of temporary hit points equal to his Constitution modifier. These disappear when combat ends and do not stack with other temporary hit points.
Brute Force (Ex): When making a Strength check, (such as a Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip, breaking ropes and chains, bending bars and lifting gates, pushing or pulling an object, forcing open a door, etc. but not strength skills or grapple checks) the Brute gains a +1 competence bonus for every two levels he has.
Bonus Feat (Ex): At 2nd level and every three levels thereafter the Brute may choose a feat for which he qualifies from the following list: Athletic, Cleave, Diehard, Endurance, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Persuasive, Power Attack, Run, Self Sufficient, or Toughness.
Dirty Fighting (Ex): The Brute delights in an unfair fight and deals an extra 2 points of damage with bludgeoning attacks any time his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC.
Adrenaline Surge (Ex): As a swift action, the Brute gains temporary hit points equal to his level and a +2 to Fortitude and Will saves if he can succeed on a DC 15 Concentration check. This effect lasts for 5 rounds. These hit points do not stack with other temporary hit points. The DC is raised by 5 for each previous success in the same day. This is a focused state and cannot be performed while in a Rage or similar state.
Bully and a Liar (Ex): The Brute gains the indicated number as a +2 competance bonus on Bluff and Intimidate checks. This improves to +4 at 7th level and +6 at 11th.
Bludgeoning Specialization (Ex): The Brute gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls made using a weapon or unarmed strike that deals bludgeoning damage.
Ignore Fatigue (Ex): The Brute may ignore the effects of fatigue from one source for a number of rounds equal to his class level.
Blunt Heavy Objects (Ex): When attacking with an improvised melee or range weapon that deals bludgeoning damage the penalty to hit is lessened by 2 and deals X3 damage on a critical hit. The object takes damage equal to the amount dealt. This will destroy most improvised weapons quickly. See Improvised Weapons on page 113 of the Player's Handbook. Example: chair, torch or wagon wheel.
Mighty Blow (Ex): When using a standard action to make an attack the Brute applies 1 and ½ times his Strength modifier instead of just his Strength modifier. If using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands instead apply twice his Strength modifier. The Brute's unarmed attacks count as one-handed weapons for this purpose.
Damage Reduction (Ex): The Brute gains Damage Reduction. Subtract 1 from the damage he takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. Every three Brute levels thereafter (10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th level), this damage reduction rises by 1 point. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.
Improved Dirty Fighting (Ex): The bonus damage from Dirty Fighting is increased to 4.
Improved Blunt Heavy Objects (Ex): When attacking with an improvised weapon requiring two hands that deals bludgeoning damage, a creature hit and dealt damage in this manner must make a Fortitude (DC = ½ class level + Str) or become staggered for 1 round.
Thrilling Charge (Ex): When charging an opponent in combat the Brute gains a +2 morale bonus to his attack and damage rolls.
Improved Adrenaline Surge (Ex): While under the effects of Adrenaline Surge the Brute's bonuses to Fortitude and Will saves increase to +3 and the effects of poison damage are delayed until the Adrenaline Surge ends.
Greater Blunt Heavy Objects (Ex): When attacking with an improvised weapon requiring two hands that deals bludgeoning damage the Brute may use an object one size category larger without penalty or difficulty, such as a medium creature using a large weapon. Also, a creature failing its Fortitude save is knocked back 5 feet in addition to being staggered. Example: barrel, door or tree stump.
Shrug It Off (Ex): Once per day the Brute can attempt to absorb a blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. This does not work against spells or SLA. To use this ability, the he must attempt a Fortitude saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, he takes only half damage from the blow. If it fails, he takes full damage. He must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to use Shrug It Off. If he is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, he can’t use this ability. The Brute gains an additional use of this ability for two additional levels.
Greater Dirty Fighting (Ex): The bonus damage from Dirty Fighting is increased to 6.
Improved Ignore Fatigue (Ex) The Brute may ignore the effects of fatigue from any number of sources for a number of rounds equal to his class level.
Perfect Blunt Heavy Objects (Ex): When attacking with an improvised weapon requiring two hands that deals bludgeoning damage the Brute may use an object two size categories larger without penalty or difficulty, such as a medium creature using a huge weapon, although movement with such weapons is done so at half speed. Also, a creature failing its Fortitude save becomes prone in addition to being knocked back 5 feet and staggered. Example: boulder, table or wagon.
Perfect Charge (Ex): When charging an opponent in combat the Brute takes no penalty to his armor class.
Greater Adrenaline Surge (Ex): While under the effects of Adrenaline Surge the Brute’s bonuses to saves improves to +4 and he becomes immune to mind affecting spells.
Greater Ignore Fatigue (Ex): The Brute is immune to any effect that would make him fatigued. Any effect that would cause him to become exhausted instead renders him fatigued.
Originally posted by satyrus:
Good job on balance overall though and it is a good mix. I'll be watching the progression and be back.
-Satyrus
Originally posted by ciaran:
There's a reason I added that the weapons could easily be destroyed in their use. I was imagining things like chairs and doors being smashed over someone's head.
Size increase cut back and reworded it. He has to find items large enough to use at the increased size.
Originally posted by satyrus:
Those fixes should work well, but I just realized another thing. If you're in a desert, plains, or other similarly barren area it would be difficult to find improvised weapons to use. Of course they could carry a bag full of large rocks as an imporvised weapon so it's not that big of a deal.
Originally posted by bkdubs123:
I think I'd prefer this if the Brute was only proficient in simple weapons (considering its focus on improvised weapons) and only proficient in light armor (considering it has tons of hitpoints and tons of ways to gain temporary hit points, not too mention DR and Shrug it Off).
Not too shabby though all in all. Probably a bit on the weak side honestly.
Originally posted by cantankerous:
Wait, wait, wait... Balanced? Against what?
Just at 1st level we already have a major problem balance wise.
A character with a 16 Constitution, at 1st level, gets 16 extra HP EVERY COMBAT. Wha? So, why would anyone ever play anything else? He's going to have roughly 2.5 times as many hit points, every time he gets hit, that other classes possess. This is balance?
Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip and other combat maneuvers do NOT need to be given a theoretical +10, just for the hell of it.
They get extra bonus feats almost as often as the fighter...on top of all the other bonus feats and class modifying abilities they get. This balances against what? And how?
Adrenaline Surge and yet MORE hit points. On top of all the extra hit points he gets every time he gets hit.
Bludgeoning Specialization: Well, here is the ONE thing that being a Fighter really nets you...weapon specialization. Which isn't enough for the Fighter, granted, but is a minor footnote in the trove here. Still, since it is one of the major features of the Fighter adding it balances things how?
I'm only at fourth level by this point and already have this as one of the least balanced classes I've ever seen except for the one that grants multiple Wishes (Limited at lower levels) per day to the character.
Isshia
Originally posted by ciaran:
Weak, really? I was worried I was going overboard!! I have more ideas. There's one idea called Dirty Fighting.
I'll drop medium armor though. If you're without heavy, medium is no big loss.
Originally posted by ciaran:
Its my birthday weekend and i have family stuff on easter so I'll type all the background, personality,etc next week.
Originally posted by satyrus:
A class that gives you Wish Spells per day? That is just wrong
Feel free to pick apart my response, it's the only way this class will get proper feedback.
-Satyrus
O and happy birthday ciaran
Originally posted by exposed_wires:
Fighters are generally one of the worst characters you can play. They have no class abilities and they get a d10. This makes them only as good as their feats. If you don't play with broken feats, your fighter isn't broken.
I think, though, that it lends itself very well for comparison, because half this build is based on it.
We'll use you own comparison in the number of bonus feats. 7 vs 11. Are we implying that all the other class features this peach gets is worth 4 feats? The class already gets wep spec for free. Anything else that gets piled on top is gravy. And with a d12 too. Hand-over-fist better.
All in all, I love the concept. A real damage taker. Would make for fantastic bar fights. I just think its a little too strong. Maybe fewer bonus feats. And give them the temporary hit points thing later. It's too strong in early levels. That class feature is still strong in later levels, thought, because its free damage you can take every encounter that doesn't need to be healed later.
Originally posted by ciaran:
The Thrill of a Fight feature was fixed to to say Con modifier instead of Con score. My bad!
Originally posted by satyrus:
Originally posted by ciaran:
When creating this class I decided it was better to let the creative juices flow rather than balance everything before it hit the page, so thats why there is alot.
My question is, does this class need features reasigned. Or do I need to flat out drop or add things?
For example, should brute force be every three levels? Should the Bonus feat (which are from a small list) be every four levels? Should I drop some of the Greater or Perfect versions of abilities? Should Brute Force include not special combat abilities, but rather only unskilled strength checks? Should I add some unarmed strike ability later in levels?
I've seen some disagreement on balance issues, so I'm sure not eveyone will agree. Goes with the terriory, huh?
Originally posted by ciaran:
There's the flavor, a few days ahead of schedule. I hope my vision came across. I could spend days revising this. I shouldn't though.
Originally posted by ciaran:
Page 3?
BUMP!
Originally posted by exposed_wires:
Ooo. I think I've been looking at this the wrong way. You've made a monk with a flavor that I don't hate. This is lovely. I'm tired of the emotionless asian-inspired characters that seem to have a monopoly on hand to hand combatants.
As for balance issues. It is WAY too strong at lower levels.
First off, too many bonus feats. Scale that way back. Half those feats are what a Brute would pick as his regular feats anyway.
It's funny because I think thrill of the fight is not strong enough. It needs to scale. I like that you get it early, because it defines the class, but maybe if you made it a static bonus that slowly increases with levels and get rid of the fake-rage.
Adrenaline boost feels nice but mechanically, it steps on the toes of Thrill and doesn't give a significant bonus (or a fatigue penalty) and basically feels like rage. (you never said that don't stack, so whats to stop somebody from dipping into Brute 3 levels and 1 into barb and having a super rage? Anyway, I think you should just change it into a bonus that lasts 1 round, doesn't require a check but makes everybody else take an intimidate check. It would represent one big feat of strength that scares everybody in the room but isn't some kind of frothing madness. Your brute seems to be somebody who just knows how to apply his strength, not a barbarian.
I think you should roll the skills bonus back to 2 x Int but add autohypnosis and sense motive to the class skill list.
I think Shrug It Off needs to be amended. You need to clarify if it's all the damage from one attack or from a round or what.
I'll have to think about the rest of the stuff.
Originally posted by ciaran:
Thrill of a Fight was indeed meant to be a freebie that won't stay nearly so important later on, but I suppose I could have it incorperate the Adrenaline Rush, or just rethink both of them so that they're not so simliar. There's a change in there but it can get more work.
They already have Brute Force for str checks, so should I remove the actual Str bonuses, maybe restricting it to temp hp and resistances?
Hmm...
I will reword Shrug it off so that its more like the rogue's defensive roll.
Feats will be at 2nd and every 4 levels after. I filled in with a few more Bully and a Liar bonuses
Originally posted by landman:
This seems like a fun fighter-type class that is enticing to play and not broken. My only complaint is that wall of random abilities and everchanging conditional bonuses might be a bit of a migraine to remember. (or maybe Im just overreacting, not sure...)
Originally posted by cantankerous:
I'm beginning to think that this has turned in to the Pun-Pun Board, errr, Optimization Board, on steroids. Except now the classes themselves are being built to be abused.
In what vague manner does this (or many another class show cased here...I'm not picking on the OP) class compare to any standard D&D class without leaving it so far in the dust that the dust got to settle before the thing got typed in? Even the Druid, which is so easily abused as to be an icon of it, looks backwards and stilted by comparison.
Isshia
Originally posted by ciaran:
That does seem to be a trend.
Originally posted by exposed_wires:
It's because these aren't meant to be used by the general population. Most of the time, these things are just marysues; the OP treating it like a creative endeavor rather than fun new mechanics. Which is all fine and dandy until you bring the thing to the table. They ought to just write fanfiction online and not bother us here.
The PEACHes keep getting stronger and stronger like some kind of arms race because one person makes a class that grinds up against the upper limits of a balanced class followed by people using that class or similarly unbalanced classes to compare their class to while figuring that it's ok if theirs is a little stronger.
Anyway, I like this class. It's still really powerful, but it's not really from any broken abilities.(there is a time-traveling peach somewhere on these boards) All you need to do is scale back the Brute Force progression, because by level 10, it wouldn't be unreasonable for that thing to be making grapple checks at +15 against other medium characters or if he took a large/powerful build race, a +19 or +20.
Make mighty blow come later. It's really good and should be one of those things your character is looking forward to for a lot of the game.
I love Dirty Fighting! It makes this guy some kind of grapple monster.
Originally posted by ciaran:
Grapple is not a strength check. It is base attack plus strength. There is a difference. I will note that in the entry.
Should the feats come at every 5th like the Knight? Should I remove some of the "greater" or "perfect" versions of abilities and rescale the when and what of the others?
My thought behine Mighty Blow at 6th was that at BAB +6 a character gets to make multible attacks. This gives an advantage when choosing not to. Thoughts?
And Dirty Fighting (I thought) would benefit most against a flat footed opponent or one who is already grappling someone else. Notice that its not precision based and it doesn't happen when flanking.
Is Bully and a Thief just a waste? Is it small/reasonable enough just to add to the flavor?
I clarified the conditions under which Shrug It Off and Adrenaline Surge will function, as well as duration and DC.
I certainly agree with the power creep factor. I've talked about it for years. Maybe I've just made myself guilty of it.
My thought in creating this was concept (blunt weapons, tough, resourceful)with a few directions for skills/feats so that no two were the same. I'm glad a few people has seen different options in it, some I didn't think of even.
I hope my excited creativity didn't corner him.
Originally posted by ciaran:
And thank you for not threadjacking me.
Originally posted by exposed_wires:
I didn't remember that about grapple checks(I usually play small characters). That brings the grapple check at lvl 10 to +29 or +30. Thats more than a huge scorpion. It's a little obscene.
The bully and ___ abilities are fun and add to his role in the group. Keep them, please.
I didn't realize mighty blow was a single attack. Does it count for charges?
Originally posted by bkdubs123:
This is a weak class. Sure, it might be kinda strong at low levels, but that's easily tweaked. As a meleer, this class is only decently powerful, it could use some help. When compared however, to a Spellcaster, of any kind, its just as weak as any non-spellcaster.
To Ciaran, if you'd like I'll give you some suggestions on this class, but I have several projects in the works currently and so I may not be very quick with them. One problem I have with it, which I think has already been brought up, is that it has TONS of class features. Its just an unattractive table. Cut some things, combine some things, clean it up.
Originally posted by ciaran:
I could clean it up. Good idea. Its interesting how people view power so differently.
A grapple check is indeed a grapple and not strength check. The abilities I speak of request that the character "make a strength check. If you read through Special Attacks in the Combat chapter of the PH, Bull Rush, Overrun & Trip require a strength check, while Grapple requires a grapple check (which includes str).
Charge is full-round action, so one cannot make a standard action durring it. Should I modify Mighty Blow to activate when making a single attack or should I leave it?
Originally posted by cantankerous:
Of course if you don't abuse this and DO abuse the Druid, ANYTHING can become PUN-Puned with a bit of abuse.
To Ciarn:
The Class has a good deal of interest value, but for actual use in a workable campaign it has a multitude of problems.
The Barbarian (and the Fighter to a lesser extent) have one of it's primary advantages over hit points, which when you aren't setting out to abuse the system, are MASSIVELY valuable commodities. It is one of the primary balance issues to give the Barbarian roughly three times as many HPs per level as the Wizard. But beyond that the Sorcerer or Wizard begin to become TOO fragile.
When you can get even six or eight additional HPs per day (say a Con bonus of +2 and three or four encounters in which HPs are lost) the gap becomes too wide.
I understand where this comes from. The later (especially the later, but some that weren't so late in this incarnation of the game) splatbooks in every generation of this game start to get just bizzarely interested in "the power creep" and the things from the splatbooks late in this edition of D&D were no different. It brings about the assumption that that's all that's worth while.
I appreciated the effort and clarity this piece was given from the beginning and the extreme civility of your responses, but in basis there is simply too many places in this instance where the character just deviates too far from the basis of the game. He has twice the skill ranks of a Fighter, roughly twice as many add ons, better hit points, hit points additions, better basic damage potential, MUCH greater gross potential and the ability to ignore the warrior (of any stamps) worst enemy... fatigue. Too much in too many places. The concept was fabulous, but the execution would only work in a Mary Sue or Monty enviroment even after the tweaks.
Isshia
Originally posted by ciaran:
I don't think I'll find a happy medium for enough of the interested people to agree on so I'm going to let this one slip into oblivion. Thanks again to everyone who took the time to form an opinion after actually reading some of what I wrote. Cheers!
Introduction:
A tall man with a massive hammer across his back leans at the bar of a dingy tavern having a drink and a laugh with the barkeep. It is early in the day and there is a peace about the place. Some light splashes in as the front door opens and three grisly looking men enter. They look about for only a second and approach. “Where were you?” one with small tusks growls “We barely escaped! You were to be there!” The large man jingles some coin in his purse, levels his gaze at them, and says “I lied. I see you’re not all here…” “We’re here to collect for that debt. You didn’t show and now Mravis is in the river. You’re coming with us.” He turns to them and stands at his full height – a head taller than any of them – crossing his arms. “You’re in the wrong place to be making demands like that. Which one of you volunteers for the first kiss from Betsy?” he replies, tilting his head at his weapon. They make nervous glances at each other then depart silently.
That night he arrives at a bar in different part of town. He is here to meet a friend who hasn’t shown. “May as well have a drink. Who knows?” There are more people about – sailors in town, miners, craftsmen, wenches and scoundrels. Suddenly, a pair of arms wrap around him from behind and several fists begin pounding into his front! He’s been ambushed and he’s in for more than a black eye. With a roar, he finds his strength and throws them back a step. With a barstool in hand he brains the first one he makes out in the shadows. The body staggers back and he spins on another, dropping his heavy fist in his belly. Taking a nearby mug in hands he quickly looks about. They weren’t expecting such retaliation and have backed off. Swinging it about threateningly him he edges away.
A becloaked Halfling by the door whispers quickly “You’re handy in a fight! I’ve a wizard friend short on gold needing to leave town quickly. Our warrior friend met a gruesome end and we’re looking for another pair of hands. Interested in making some money?” Surprised, but interested, he nods. “Then I’ll find you. Mind the one to your left!” He hurls the mug at a man creeping along the wall and blood pours from the wound. In an instant our hero is gone and off to safer surroundings.
****
Adventures: The Brute is most at home in a large town or city where opportunities and excitement abound but is not about expanding his horizons and testing his daring. Nothing shakes up the ordinary or gets someone who is in trouble out of town like a hike through the wilderness or a dungeon crawl. There are bigger enemies and untold treasures to be found and the Brute is ready for them all.
Characteristics: The Brute is a primary combatant who, like the barbarian, relies on guts and thick skin rather than armor and is adept at using what is available to big to defeat those he opposes. He prefers blunt weaponry for availability and ease of use – besides it makes a great squishy sound when it breaks skin! He isn’t above less-than-honorable tactics, preferring to fighty down and dirty, charging directly into the fray. When a mace or club isn’t available, anything heavy and handy will suffice. Failing that, he knows how to kill with his bare hands. The sheer excitement he experiences from battle pushes him to survive the worst wounds. His strengths shine in life-or-death situations.
Alignment: The Brute is not so much inclined towards chaos as he is adverse to law. Life moves to quickly and has too many opportunities to be restricted to haughty codes of conduct and manners. And while they are not above using certain tactics against enemies or those who might have something they want, the Brute’s views on morality are his own. However, it is unlikely that even the evil Brute is set on much beyond his own needs and even the good Brute would not stick out his neck too far for someone else who didn’t really need help.
Religion: While some may worship Gods like Kord or Fharlanghn, and others perhaps Erythnul, most Brutes couldn’t be bothered with paying homage to a higher power.
Background: Most Brutes grew up poor and in rough areas where they learned to survive by being bigger, stronger or wilier than those who struggled just to get by. Some took to the path later in life because of the excitement of bar room brawls and back alley encounters.
Races: Most Brutes are of Human or Orcish decent, though some Dwarves who have rejected the rigidity of their people fall to it as well. Gnomes and Elves rarely take to it but more than one Halfling has left a tavern in ruins.
Other Classes: Brutes see classes like Fighters and Barbarians as capable combatants with their own unique and worthy skills, but lacking whatever savvy the Brute thinks he possesses. Many get along well with Rogues and Bards, seeing them as versatile and good allies to have. They aren’t much concerned with Rangers, Monks and Paladins but take each individually. In the case of primary spell casters such as Clerics and Wizards, the Brute appreciates the ones who take risks and have his back.
Role: In a standard party with a second martial combatant, the Brute’s ability to make a door where there isn’t one and survive the worst disasters leaves the other warrior room to specialize in perhaps archery of skirmishing, although a Barbarian and a Brute would make quite force to be reckoned with.
Ability Scores: Strength and Constitution are vital to this class, even though his talents help compensate when they are not as high as another’s. Although sharp mental faculties aren’t necessary, they are another tool available to him.
BRUTE
Alignment: Any non-lawful
Hit Die: d12
CLASS SKILLS
The brute’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis) and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Brawler, Thrill of a Fight
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Brute Force, Bonus Feat, Dirty Fighting
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Adrenaline Surge, Bully and a Liar
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Bludgeoning Specialization
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Ignore Fatigue, Blunt Heavy Objects
6 +6 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat, Mighty Blow
7 +7 +5 +2 +2 Damage Reduction 1/-
8 +8 +6 +2 +2 Improved Dirty Fighting
9 +9 +6 +3 +3 Improved Blunt Heavy Objects, Thrilling Charge
10 +10 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat, Damage Reduction 2/-
11 +11 +7 +3 +3 Improved Adrenaline Surge
12 +12 +8 +4 +4 Greater Blunt Heavy Objects
13 +13 +8 +4 +4 Damage Reduction 3/-, Shrug It Off
14 +14 +9 +4 +4 Bonus Feat, Greater Dirty Fighting
15 +15 +9 +5 +5 Improved Ignore Fatigue
16 +16 +10 +5 +5 Damage Reduction 4/-
17 +17 +10 +5 +5 Perfect Charge
18 +18 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat, Perfect Blunt Heavy Objects
19 +19 +11 +6 +6 Damage Reduction 5/-
20 +20 +12 +6 +6 Greater Adrenaline Surge, Greater Ignore Fatigue
CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are class features of the Brute.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Brute is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor and shields (not including tower shields).
Brawler (Ex): The Brute gains the Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat and deals 1d4 unarmed damage (as a medium creature).
Thrill of a Fight (Ex): Once per combat, on his turn following first taking damage from an enemy, the Brute gains a number of temporary hit points equal to his Constitution modifier. These disappear when combat ends and do not stack with other temporary hit points.
Brute Force (Ex): When making a Strength check, (such as a Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip, breaking ropes and chains, bending bars and lifting gates, pushing or pulling an object, forcing open a door, etc. but not strength skills or grapple checks) the Brute gains a +1 competence bonus for every two levels he has.
Bonus Feat (Ex): At 2nd level and every three levels thereafter the Brute may choose a feat for which he qualifies from the following list: Athletic, Cleave, Diehard, Endurance, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Persuasive, Power Attack, Run, Self Sufficient, or Toughness.
Dirty Fighting (Ex): The Brute delights in an unfair fight and deals an extra 2 points of damage with bludgeoning attacks any time his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC.
Adrenaline Surge (Ex): As a swift action, the Brute gains temporary hit points equal to his level and a +2 to Fortitude and Will saves if he can succeed on a DC 15 Concentration check. This effect lasts for 5 rounds. These hit points do not stack with other temporary hit points. The DC is raised by 5 for each previous success in the same day. This is a focused state and cannot be performed while in a Rage or similar state.
Bully and a Liar (Ex): The Brute gains the indicated number as a +2 competance bonus on Bluff and Intimidate checks. This improves to +4 at 7th level and +6 at 11th.
Bludgeoning Specialization (Ex): The Brute gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls made using a weapon or unarmed strike that deals bludgeoning damage.
Ignore Fatigue (Ex): The Brute may ignore the effects of fatigue from one source for a number of rounds equal to his class level.
Blunt Heavy Objects (Ex): When attacking with an improvised melee or range weapon that deals bludgeoning damage the penalty to hit is lessened by 2 and deals X3 damage on a critical hit. The object takes damage equal to the amount dealt. This will destroy most improvised weapons quickly. See Improvised Weapons on page 113 of the Player's Handbook. Example: chair, torch or wagon wheel.
Mighty Blow (Ex): When using a standard action to make an attack the Brute applies 1 and ½ times his Strength modifier instead of just his Strength modifier. If using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands instead apply twice his Strength modifier. The Brute's unarmed attacks count as one-handed weapons for this purpose.
Damage Reduction (Ex): The Brute gains Damage Reduction. Subtract 1 from the damage he takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. Every three Brute levels thereafter (10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th level), this damage reduction rises by 1 point. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.
Improved Dirty Fighting (Ex): The bonus damage from Dirty Fighting is increased to 4.
Improved Blunt Heavy Objects (Ex): When attacking with an improvised weapon requiring two hands that deals bludgeoning damage, a creature hit and dealt damage in this manner must make a Fortitude (DC = ½ class level + Str) or become staggered for 1 round.
Thrilling Charge (Ex): When charging an opponent in combat the Brute gains a +2 morale bonus to his attack and damage rolls.
Improved Adrenaline Surge (Ex): While under the effects of Adrenaline Surge the Brute's bonuses to Fortitude and Will saves increase to +3 and the effects of poison damage are delayed until the Adrenaline Surge ends.
Greater Blunt Heavy Objects (Ex): When attacking with an improvised weapon requiring two hands that deals bludgeoning damage the Brute may use an object one size category larger without penalty or difficulty, such as a medium creature using a large weapon. Also, a creature failing its Fortitude save is knocked back 5 feet in addition to being staggered. Example: barrel, door or tree stump.
Shrug It Off (Ex): Once per day the Brute can attempt to absorb a blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. This does not work against spells or SLA. To use this ability, the he must attempt a Fortitude saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, he takes only half damage from the blow. If it fails, he takes full damage. He must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to use Shrug It Off. If he is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, he can’t use this ability. The Brute gains an additional use of this ability for two additional levels.
Greater Dirty Fighting (Ex): The bonus damage from Dirty Fighting is increased to 6.
Improved Ignore Fatigue (Ex) The Brute may ignore the effects of fatigue from any number of sources for a number of rounds equal to his class level.
Perfect Blunt Heavy Objects (Ex): When attacking with an improvised weapon requiring two hands that deals bludgeoning damage the Brute may use an object two size categories larger without penalty or difficulty, such as a medium creature using a huge weapon, although movement with such weapons is done so at half speed. Also, a creature failing its Fortitude save becomes prone in addition to being knocked back 5 feet and staggered. Example: boulder, table or wagon.
Perfect Charge (Ex): When charging an opponent in combat the Brute takes no penalty to his armor class.
Greater Adrenaline Surge (Ex): While under the effects of Adrenaline Surge the Brute’s bonuses to saves improves to +4 and he becomes immune to mind affecting spells.
Greater Ignore Fatigue (Ex): The Brute is immune to any effect that would make him fatigued. Any effect that would cause him to become exhausted instead renders him fatigued.
Originally posted by satyrus:
Please do, the class seems to be fairly well-balanced at a glance but without an angle to come from it seems a bit dull. But maybe I just like bizzare stuff.
This series of abilities could get unbalanced. If your a medium creature and get oversized weapon, TWF feats, and monkey grip you could do some insane damage with bludgeoning weapons. We're talking a medium, or even small sized creature with the ability to use the equivalent of a club 4 size categories larger than them in each hand.
Good job on balance overall though and it is a good mix. I'll be watching the progression and be back.
-Satyrus
Originally posted by ciaran:
There's a reason I added that the weapons could easily be destroyed in their use. I was imagining things like chairs and doors being smashed over someone's head.
Size increase cut back and reworded it. He has to find items large enough to use at the increased size.
Originally posted by satyrus:
Those fixes should work well, but I just realized another thing. If you're in a desert, plains, or other similarly barren area it would be difficult to find improvised weapons to use. Of course they could carry a bag full of large rocks as an imporvised weapon so it's not that big of a deal.
Originally posted by bkdubs123:
I think I'd prefer this if the Brute was only proficient in simple weapons (considering its focus on improvised weapons) and only proficient in light armor (considering it has tons of hitpoints and tons of ways to gain temporary hit points, not too mention DR and Shrug it Off).
Not too shabby though all in all. Probably a bit on the weak side honestly.
Originally posted by cantankerous:
Wait, wait, wait... Balanced? Against what?
Just at 1st level we already have a major problem balance wise.
A character with a 16 Constitution, at 1st level, gets 16 extra HP EVERY COMBAT. Wha? So, why would anyone ever play anything else? He's going to have roughly 2.5 times as many hit points, every time he gets hit, that other classes possess. This is balance?
Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip and other combat maneuvers do NOT need to be given a theoretical +10, just for the hell of it.
They get extra bonus feats almost as often as the fighter...on top of all the other bonus feats and class modifying abilities they get. This balances against what? And how?
Adrenaline Surge and yet MORE hit points. On top of all the extra hit points he gets every time he gets hit.
Bludgeoning Specialization: Well, here is the ONE thing that being a Fighter really nets you...weapon specialization. Which isn't enough for the Fighter, granted, but is a minor footnote in the trove here. Still, since it is one of the major features of the Fighter adding it balances things how?
I'm only at fourth level by this point and already have this as one of the least balanced classes I've ever seen except for the one that grants multiple Wishes (Limited at lower levels) per day to the character.
Isshia
Originally posted by ciaran:
Weak, really? I was worried I was going overboard!!
I have more ideas. There's one idea called Dirty Fighting.I'll drop medium armor though. If you're without heavy, medium is no big loss.
Originally posted by ciaran:
Its my birthday weekend and i have family stuff on easter so I'll type all the background, personality,etc next week.
Originally posted by satyrus:
At low levels this may be true, but it becomes only a small boost later, unless you can get your con up extremely high. However, just the fact that it does become somewhat useless at later levels means it might need to be altered somewhat.
I think the validity of this ability depends largely on the flavor text to be provided. And is a +10 at level 20 such a broken thing?
At 20th level the fighter gets 11 bonus feats total while this class gets 7. I can see your point, but I'm still not sure if using the fighter as a baseline for a balanced class is a good idea. I've seen opinions arguments that fighters are too powerful and too weak. It depends on the feats you allow. Besides the only feat listed right now that does actual damage is power attack. The others boost abilities, health and special attacks for the most part.
Where does it say you get to do this every time you get hit?
Again I can't really say whether using the fighter as a base is a good idea, but I could see it being muti-purposed with weapon focus and specialization, even though they'd be better off sticking to improvised weapons with this class. It may be a good idea to specify that Bludgeoning Specialization is the weapon specialization feat for bludgeoning weapons.
Feel free to pick apart my response, it's the only way this class will get proper feedback.
-Satyrus
O and happy birthday ciaran
Originally posted by exposed_wires:
Fighters are generally one of the worst characters you can play. They have no class abilities and they get a d10. This makes them only as good as their feats. If you don't play with broken feats, your fighter isn't broken.
I think, though, that it lends itself very well for comparison, because half this build is based on it.
We'll use you own comparison in the number of bonus feats. 7 vs 11. Are we implying that all the other class features this peach gets is worth 4 feats? The class already gets wep spec for free. Anything else that gets piled on top is gravy. And with a d12 too. Hand-over-fist better.
All in all, I love the concept. A real damage taker. Would make for fantastic bar fights. I just think its a little too strong. Maybe fewer bonus feats. And give them the temporary hit points thing later. It's too strong in early levels. That class feature is still strong in later levels, thought, because its free damage you can take every encounter that doesn't need to be healed later.
Originally posted by ciaran:
The Thrill of a Fight feature was fixed to to say Con modifier instead of Con score. My bad!
Originally posted by satyrus:
Lol that should tone at least that power down a bit.
Originally posted by ciaran:
When creating this class I decided it was better to let the creative juices flow rather than balance everything before it hit the page, so thats why there is alot.
My question is, does this class need features reasigned. Or do I need to flat out drop or add things?
For example, should brute force be every three levels? Should the Bonus feat (which are from a small list) be every four levels? Should I drop some of the Greater or Perfect versions of abilities? Should Brute Force include not special combat abilities, but rather only unskilled strength checks? Should I add some unarmed strike ability later in levels?
I've seen some disagreement on balance issues, so I'm sure not eveyone will agree. Goes with the terriory, huh?
Originally posted by ciaran:
There's the flavor, a few days ahead of schedule. I hope my vision came across. I could spend days revising this. I shouldn't though.
Originally posted by ciaran:
Page 3?
Originally posted by exposed_wires:
Ooo. I think I've been looking at this the wrong way. You've made a monk with a flavor that I don't hate. This is lovely. I'm tired of the emotionless asian-inspired characters that seem to have a monopoly on hand to hand combatants.
As for balance issues. It is WAY too strong at lower levels.
First off, too many bonus feats. Scale that way back. Half those feats are what a Brute would pick as his regular feats anyway.
It's funny because I think thrill of the fight is not strong enough. It needs to scale. I like that you get it early, because it defines the class, but maybe if you made it a static bonus that slowly increases with levels and get rid of the fake-rage.
Adrenaline boost feels nice but mechanically, it steps on the toes of Thrill and doesn't give a significant bonus (or a fatigue penalty) and basically feels like rage. (you never said that don't stack, so whats to stop somebody from dipping into Brute 3 levels and 1 into barb and having a super rage? Anyway, I think you should just change it into a bonus that lasts 1 round, doesn't require a check but makes everybody else take an intimidate check. It would represent one big feat of strength that scares everybody in the room but isn't some kind of frothing madness. Your brute seems to be somebody who just knows how to apply his strength, not a barbarian.
I think you should roll the skills bonus back to 2 x Int but add autohypnosis and sense motive to the class skill list.
I think Shrug It Off needs to be amended. You need to clarify if it's all the damage from one attack or from a round or what.
I'll have to think about the rest of the stuff.
Originally posted by ciaran:
Thrill of a Fight was indeed meant to be a freebie that won't stay nearly so important later on, but I suppose I could have it incorperate the Adrenaline Rush, or just rethink both of them so that they're not so simliar. There's a change in there but it can get more work.
They already have Brute Force for str checks, so should I remove the actual Str bonuses, maybe restricting it to temp hp and resistances?
Hmm...
I will reword Shrug it off so that its more like the rogue's defensive roll.
Feats will be at 2nd and every 4 levels after. I filled in with a few more Bully and a Liar bonuses
Originally posted by landman:
This seems like a fun fighter-type class that is enticing to play and not broken. My only complaint is that wall of random abilities and everchanging conditional bonuses might be a bit of a migraine to remember. (or maybe Im just overreacting, not sure...)
Originally posted by cantankerous:
I'm beginning to think that this has turned in to the Pun-Pun Board, errr, Optimization Board, on steroids. Except now the classes themselves are being built to be abused.
In what vague manner does this (or many another class show cased here...I'm not picking on the OP) class compare to any standard D&D class without leaving it so far in the dust that the dust got to settle before the thing got typed in? Even the Druid, which is so easily abused as to be an icon of it, looks backwards and stilted by comparison.
Isshia
Originally posted by ciaran:
That does seem to be a trend.
Originally posted by exposed_wires:
It's because these aren't meant to be used by the general population. Most of the time, these things are just marysues; the OP treating it like a creative endeavor rather than fun new mechanics. Which is all fine and dandy until you bring the thing to the table. They ought to just write fanfiction online and not bother us here.
The PEACHes keep getting stronger and stronger like some kind of arms race because one person makes a class that grinds up against the upper limits of a balanced class followed by people using that class or similarly unbalanced classes to compare their class to while figuring that it's ok if theirs is a little stronger.
Anyway, I like this class. It's still really powerful, but it's not really from any broken abilities.(there is a time-traveling peach somewhere on these boards) All you need to do is scale back the Brute Force progression, because by level 10, it wouldn't be unreasonable for that thing to be making grapple checks at +15 against other medium characters or if he took a large/powerful build race, a +19 or +20.
Make mighty blow come later. It's really good and should be one of those things your character is looking forward to for a lot of the game.
I love Dirty Fighting! It makes this guy some kind of grapple monster.
Originally posted by ciaran:
Grapple is not a strength check. It is base attack plus strength. There is a difference. I will note that in the entry.
Should the feats come at every 5th like the Knight? Should I remove some of the "greater" or "perfect" versions of abilities and rescale the when and what of the others?
My thought behine Mighty Blow at 6th was that at BAB +6 a character gets to make multible attacks. This gives an advantage when choosing not to. Thoughts?
And Dirty Fighting (I thought) would benefit most against a flat footed opponent or one who is already grappling someone else. Notice that its not precision based and it doesn't happen when flanking.
Is Bully and a Thief just a waste? Is it small/reasonable enough just to add to the flavor?
I clarified the conditions under which Shrug It Off and Adrenaline Surge will function, as well as duration and DC.
I certainly agree with the power creep factor. I've talked about it for years. Maybe I've just made myself guilty of it.
My thought in creating this was concept (blunt weapons, tough, resourceful)with a few directions for skills/feats so that no two were the same. I'm glad a few people has seen different options in it, some I didn't think of even.
Originally posted by ciaran:
And thank you for not threadjacking me.
Originally posted by exposed_wires:
I didn't remember that about grapple checks(I usually play small characters). That brings the grapple check at lvl 10 to +29 or +30. Thats more than a huge scorpion. It's a little obscene.
The bully and ___ abilities are fun and add to his role in the group. Keep them, please.
I didn't realize mighty blow was a single attack. Does it count for charges?
Originally posted by bkdubs123:
ROFLMAO. Really? This is stronger than a Druid? WHAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
This is a weak class. Sure, it might be kinda strong at low levels, but that's easily tweaked. As a meleer, this class is only decently powerful, it could use some help. When compared however, to a Spellcaster, of any kind, its just as weak as any non-spellcaster.
To Ciaran, if you'd like I'll give you some suggestions on this class, but I have several projects in the works currently and so I may not be very quick with them. One problem I have with it, which I think has already been brought up, is that it has TONS of class features. Its just an unattractive table. Cut some things, combine some things, clean it up.
Originally posted by ciaran:
I could clean it up. Good idea. Its interesting how people view power so differently.
A grapple check is indeed a grapple and not strength check. The abilities I speak of request that the character "make a strength check. If you read through Special Attacks in the Combat chapter of the PH, Bull Rush, Overrun & Trip require a strength check, while Grapple requires a grapple check (which includes str).
Charge is full-round action, so one cannot make a standard action durring it. Should I modify Mighty Blow to activate when making a single attack or should I leave it?
Originally posted by cantankerous:
If you actually use the rules for spell casters, instead of abusing the sin out of them, then yes, the Druid is LEAGUES behind the way this class was originally presented.
Of course if you don't abuse this and DO abuse the Druid, ANYTHING can become PUN-Puned with a bit of abuse.
To Ciarn:
The Class has a good deal of interest value, but for actual use in a workable campaign it has a multitude of problems.
The Barbarian (and the Fighter to a lesser extent) have one of it's primary advantages over hit points, which when you aren't setting out to abuse the system, are MASSIVELY valuable commodities. It is one of the primary balance issues to give the Barbarian roughly three times as many HPs per level as the Wizard. But beyond that the Sorcerer or Wizard begin to become TOO fragile.
When you can get even six or eight additional HPs per day (say a Con bonus of +2 and three or four encounters in which HPs are lost) the gap becomes too wide.
I understand where this comes from. The later (especially the later, but some that weren't so late in this incarnation of the game) splatbooks in every generation of this game start to get just bizzarely interested in "the power creep" and the things from the splatbooks late in this edition of D&D were no different. It brings about the assumption that that's all that's worth while.
I appreciated the effort and clarity this piece was given from the beginning and the extreme civility of your responses, but in basis there is simply too many places in this instance where the character just deviates too far from the basis of the game. He has twice the skill ranks of a Fighter, roughly twice as many add ons, better hit points, hit points additions, better basic damage potential, MUCH greater gross potential and the ability to ignore the warrior (of any stamps) worst enemy... fatigue. Too much in too many places. The concept was fabulous, but the execution would only work in a Mary Sue or Monty enviroment even after the tweaks.
Isshia
Originally posted by ciaran:
I don't think I'll find a happy medium for enough of the interested people to agree on so I'm going to let this one slip into oblivion. Thanks again to everyone who took the time to form an opinion after actually reading some of what I wrote. Cheers!
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