Homebrew Homebrew: The Dread Knight (Warlock)

VenerableBede

Adventurer
Disclaimer: A5e is a new system and I don't claim to have an expert grasp of it. After reading through the core rulebooks I had some ideas for warlock archetypes that I put together, and this is my favorite so far. If you like it, if you hate it, any feedback is appreciated, but in particular I'm interested in feedback about potential multiclass exploits or balancing issues. If you want to take this archetype and use it or make it your own, feel free, but if you use it with minuscule changes I request that you make it clear that this archetype is intended for A5e (but is not official—all that good OGL stuff) and reference the original author (me). As is the case with many examples of homebrew, aspects of this archetype are inspired by or adapted from existing material, specifically the Eldritch Smite and Eldritch armor abilities, but I have adapted and tweaked them. As far as I am aware I am not committing any copyright infringement with those two abilities, but if anyone notices anything legally troubling please let me know.
That out of the way, let's begin!

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VenerableBede

Adventurer
I guess a final note from the author: the final features of this archetype, Baleful Blows and Muster the Damned, probably need limited uses per day to be balanced properly. I get that. But the warlock is the one class built almost exclusively around at-will and short rest abilities. I just get cranky when I see it given cool abilities on a warlock that are tied to long rests. (Long rest abilities do have the advantage of, typically, being able to be used more before needing to take a rest, while many short rest abilities are very commonly only available once or twice per short rest. This means that Long rest abilities are more likely to get extensive use during an adventuring day while short rest abilities are more likely to get shafted if the party doesn't feel like taking more short rests. I hope that A5e closes the gap between these two types of resource management systems, particularly with martial fighters having exertion and, most of them, suddenly benefiting from taking a breather every few fights.)
 

Sepulchre

Explorer
I love this idea, and would love to see a warlock subclass with maneuvers, but these first level features are not even close to balanced. Spell points grow much faster than exertion pools, and are both short rest resources. And compare your eldritch smite feature to the Brute fighter’s.
 

Timespike

A5E Designer and third-party publisher
I've got a warlock subclass called the "Martialist" designed for the upcoming 3PP project I'm working on with some of my fellow designers. Interesting to see some of the similarities and differences. For example, I also have a feature called "Eldritch Armor" but it works completely differently and shows up much later. I also have maneuvers as an option, but they're implemented differently, and there's no mounted component to my subclass at all.

It's always cool to see how different people approach the same basic goal.
 

VenerableBede

Adventurer
First of all, thanks for the feedback! :)
Spell points grow much faster than exertion pools, and are both short rest resources.
Absolutely true! Here's the reasoning behind it to see if I can change your mind about potential balance. Using spell points to fuel maneuvers has an analogue with heralds using spell slots to fuel maneuvers, so this idea already exists in A5e. Both heralds and warlocks (if you used this archetype) can get a significant amount of exertion over other martial classes, but it comes at the cost of their spellcasting, which, as a full caster, is a bigger sacrifice for the warlock than the herald.

However, I do think there's a potentially strong argument to increasing the spell point cost to activate maneuvers—maybe it would be more balanced to have to pay the exertion cost of a maneuver plus one, in spell points. That way the cost of a level one maneuvers is analogous to the cost of a level one spell. I hesitate to do that, though, because then the dread knight warlock would be able to use significantly less maneuvers per short rest and it would eat up all ability to cast spells. Here's a comparison between warlock and fighter:
Level 1: Warlock has 2 spell points. Fighter has 4 exertion points. Warlock can do half the maneuvers the fighter can do (even less if you make the spell point/exertion conversion worse), will have less hit points, and may have worse armor, depending on which Hell's Armor option you choose.
Level 2: Warlocks and fighters are now tied in spell points/exertion, but if we increase the cost of maneuvers warlocks still do less per rest and won't be able to cast many, if any, spells.
Level 3: Warlocks start to pull ahead of fighters in spell points versus exertion, but they also get more expensive spells that they can't cast if they use exertion. Meanwhile, fighters are getting other abilities that don't cost any exertion. (Warlocks might be in the same boat depending on how they manage Eldritch Blast and invocations.)

I think a better comparison is the adept, a class that gets bonus exertion but still won't get as much exertion as warlocks get spell points. The Adept also has the same HP as the warlock and more comparable AC to the dread knight, particularly if you choose Eldritch Armor. But then again, the adept only uses exertion for martial abilities, while the warlock has spells as a main class feature that it needs to balance against maneuvers.

In my mind, the balance comes from conceptualizing a dread knight's maneuvers as an extension to its spellcasting—kind of like more spells known, these ones just require a weapon in hand to cast. The dread knight doesn't give the warlock more resources to use, just more ways to spend those resources.

Of course, without playtesting, I can't be certain which direction is ultimately the most balanced.

Anyway, thanks for making me think this out a lot! Your comments made me directly compare the warlock spell point progression to the exertion progression of fighters or adepts, which I hadn't done before, and I think it improved my conceptual image of this archetype, even if I don't feel that it needs to be changed—yet.
And compare your eldritch smite feature to the Brute fighter’s.
Thanks for the comparison! I had forgotten about the Brute fighter ability that's analogous to this. That actually makes me want to increase the spell point cost of the dread knight's smite across the board because, unlike the Brute's ability, the dread knight's smite also knocks enemies prone.
 

Sepulchre

Explorer
Sorry, I’m horrible at using the forums on my phone.

I totally think spell-points-for-exertion is a viable idea, I’d focus on balancing for levels 3–8 more than anything else. I think your best bet is probably to require a temp exertion pool at the start of a turn, with a little tax on the conversion. That’s not elegant though, for sure.
 
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VenerableBede

Adventurer
For example, I also have a feature called "Eldritch Armor" but it works completely differently and shows up much later. I also have maneuvers as an option, but they're implemented differently, and there's no mounted component to my subclass at all.

It's always cool to see how different people approach the same basic goal.
Thanks for sharing! I'm really curious how your "Eldritch Armor" works. My version—well, the two different options—was born of the following:
  • A desire to provide multiple comparable class options at more levels, which seems to be general A5e design that I quite like
  • A desire to give martial warlocks eventual access to heavy armor (for those that don't want to focus on Dexterity; for those that do, pick the option that's basically berserker Unarmored Defense but with a different ability)
  • An effort to keep things balanced, especially with regards to potential multiclass shenanigans
The mounted component, believe it or not, was born from the arguments people have been having over how Eldritch Scythe and Thirsting Blade worked (whether they were compatible or not). My original vision was for this archetype to be able to use Eldritch Scythe or Eldritch Whip in place of weapon attacks with maneuvers, but I was very concerned about balance issues, particularly with the incredibly high damage ceiling of combinations like Polearm Savant and Eldritch Scythe. I'm glad I got scared off of that direction, though, because I think this version has a stronger flavor to it, at least until level six. I have mixed opinions about the later-level abilities. It just seemed wrong to make a dread knight without having some sort of fear and undead element to it, but just giving warlocks Animate Dead is busted and they already have Fear on their spell list...
 

Timespike

A5E Designer and third-party publisher
Thanks for sharing! I'm really curious how your "Eldritch Armor" works. My version—well, the two different options—was born of the following:
  • A desire to provide multiple comparable class options at more levels, which seems to be general A5e design that I quite like
  • A desire to give martial warlocks eventual access to heavy armor (for those that don't want to focus on Dexterity; for those that do, pick the option that's basically berserker Unarmored Defense but with a different ability)
  • An effort to keep things balanced, especially with regards to potential multiclass shenanigans
The mounted component, believe it or not, was born from the arguments people have been having over how Eldritch Scythe and Thirsting Blade worked (whether they were compatible or not). My original vision was for this archetype to be able to use Eldritch Scythe or Eldritch Whip in place of weapon attacks with maneuvers, but I was very concerned about balance issues, particularly with the incredibly high damage ceiling of combinations like Polearm Savant and Eldritch Scythe. I'm glad I got scared off of that direction, though, because I think this version has a stronger flavor to it, at least until level six. I have mixed opinions about the later-level abilities. It just seemed wrong to make a dread knight without having some sort of fear and undead element to it, but just giving warlocks Animate Dead is busted and they already have Fear on their spell list...
Mine works closer to something like armor of agathys in that it's a pool of temp hp that retaliates with damage when struck. For more details, you'll have to wait until that project is done. We may tease some more of the material we've been working on as we get closer to a release date.
 

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