Homebrew: "Twin Strike" for an Avenger

[Tequila Sunrise]

I've just introduced a player to the game; he played a ranger pregen in his first session, and then died. Now he wants to play an avenger with two swords, because he liked it as a ranger. I told him that avengers don't normally dual-wield, but that I'd see what I could do since I'm making his PC based on what he wants. I could just give him the two-weapon feat, but I think that'd be disappointing. So I came up with these, and thought I'd run them by ENworld:

Twin Blade Smite (at-will)
Requirement: Must be wielding two melee weapons
Target: One
Attack: Wisdom vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] radiant damage, and make a secondary attack.
Secondary Attack: Wisdom vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] radiant damage.

Twin Blade Smite (encounter)
Requirement: Must be wielding two melee weapons
Target: One
Attack: Wisdom vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Wisdom mod radiant damage, and make a secondary attack.
Secondary Attack: Wisdom vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Wisdom mod radiant damage.

Twin Blade Smite (daily)
Requirement: Must be wielding two melee weapons
Target: One
Attack: Wisdom vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Wisdom mod radiant damage, and make a secondary attack.
Miss: Half damage.
Secondary Attack: Wisdom vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Wisdom mod radiant damage.
Miss: Half damage.

So, what do you think? Am I going to regret this? Is the party's other avenger going to get jealous?

 

[DEFCON 1]

I dunno... with the Avenger's 'roll 2 dice take the best' ability... having the potential for 4 dice rolls each round to possibly crit on the Oath target with a 20 seems to me to be a potential problem. Me personally... if I were to give him the Twin Striking as you suggest... I might make the second attack require a different target than the first. That way both attacks wouldn't be able to be against the Oath of Enmity target.

Yes, it would probably preclude the selection of the Isolating Avenger build... but it would keep damage down to a much more manageable level. Especially considering the Avenger's main striker damage comes specifically from hitting more often with Oath of Enmity. To get that AND two attacks a round (so four potential rolls against the target)? Could easily get out of hand.

And will the other Avenger get jealous? Oh yeah. Damn right he will. Absolutely. Unless you nerf the dual-wielding Avenger in some other way, like changing those Twin Strike powers you created to all be

Attack: Wisdom - 2 vs. AC

And even that probably wouldn't do it.

 

[underfoot007ct]

Seems way over powered, all the benefits of Avengers 2 dice rolls, with no down sides. Even more powerful than a a ranger.

 

[Mengu]

Twin Strike is already pretty abusable through normal channels like half-elf dilettante shenanigans, but is costly in resources and kicks in at paragon, so you have to survive with one or two two-weapon powers through heroic.

I'd go for something simple like:

Twin Blade Smite (at-will)
Requirement: Must be wielding two melee weapons
Target: One
Attack: Wisdom vs. AC (main weapon)
Hit: 1[W] (main weapon) + 1[W] (off-hand weapon) + Wisdom modifier damage.

Actually... I'd also add + 1[W] (off-hand weapon) damage to his standard action avenger encounter and daily weapon attack powers. I think the damage on those is pretty low for a striker any way.

The most abusive thing he can do is burn a couple feats for Two Blade Warrior and Waraxe to roll 2d12. That's still significantly under the surprising charging warshovel overwhelming power of skill strike user with 4d6[b1]+1d6+1d8'ish damage...

If it looks like he needs more of a boost, maybe let him pick a feat down the road to add the enhancement bonus of the off-hand weapon to his damage roll.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Attack: Wisdom - 2 vs. AC

I had been considering this very idea, so I'm glad you suggested it.

Seems way over powered, all the benefits of Avengers 2 dice rolls, with no down sides. Even more powerful than a a ranger.

Yeah it's probably overpowered as-is, but there is the [albeit minor] downside that he has to hit with a primary attack to even roll the second one. Whereas a ranger can twin strike with melee or ranged, against one or two targets, and regardless of the 'first' attack roll.

Twin Blade Smite (at-will)
Requirement: Must be wielding two melee weapons
Target: One
Attack: Wisdom vs. AC (main weapon)
Hit: 1[W] (main weapon) + 1[W] (off-hand weapon) + Wisdom modifier damage.

Isn't this even more broken than my initial idea?

Actually... I'd also add + 1[W] (off-hand weapon) damage to his standard action avenger encounter and daily weapon attack powers. I think the damage on those is pretty low for a striker any way.

My bad, I meant to add a damage die to the daily's primary attack. Fixed!

 

[Mengu]

Isn't this even more broken than my initial idea?

Nope, your initial idea is two attacks, two damage rolls, my idea (stolen from whirling barbarian), is one attack, one damage roll. The damage from the off-hand weapon is just extra damage, so it won't get any modifiers. It will amount to more reasonable damage, some will still consider it too low for striker damage (it's nothing close to charger damage). Also you don't get to roll 4 dice for a chance to crit this way.

My bad, I meant to add a damage die to the daily's primary attack. Fixed!

Actually, I wouldn't bother making new encounter and dailies for the build. Just let him pick whatever he wants and add extra off-hand [W] damage to it for anything that's an avenger encounter or daily standard action weapon attack power. Think of it this way, instead of a 2d6[b1] gouge, he is wielding maybe a 1d10+1d6 weapon (say bastard sword and shortsword). In essence, you're changing nothing other than the damage dice.

 

[DEFCON 1]

So far good suggestions to mimic the two weapons... but it actually doesn't solve the other problem, which is you already have an Avenger in the party. No matter what you do... this original Avenger is going to feel slighted because he is going to be doing less damage than the new Avenger. If you didn't have an Avenger already in the party, the extra-damage new character wouldn't be much of an issue... but putting both these Avengers next to each other... the first one is at an obvious disadvantage.

What exactly is the reasoning the new player's wish to play an Avenger (in addition to two-weapon fighting)? If he just likes the fluff... then I'd say remove (or heavily nerf) when he can use Oath of Enmity. That way there's an obvious equaling in power between the two... one Avenger gets to use the "two roll" ability of Oath all the time as normal... the other Avenger doesn't get to use it except in a couple circumstance, but is balanced by getting either additional attacks or additional weapon damage (if you use Mengu's suggestion.) That might be the only way to keep both players happy.

But if the second player wants Avenger because of the "two attack rolls" ability... then I'd just tell him he can take all the Two Weapon Fighting feats if he wants... but that's it. That's the extent of his TWF, as anything made special for him would be unbalanced versus the regular Avenger.

 

[Saagael]

Another poster mentioned Half-elf twin strike shenaningans, which is a good build.

I suggest that you just do the "two weapon fighting" feat chain, and not try to homebrew anything. There are other feats like Two Weapon Opening to take as well (I know one of the chain gives a free MBA on critical hit, which he should get at least 1/encounter).

If he gives a stink about it, you can tell him that his two rolls for his Oath represents both his weapons he's using. If he decries that as unrealistic, tell him that, historically, people never used 2 swords at the same time; it was unwieldy and inefficient. If he thinks that he should get two damage rolls, inform him that any martial artist who has trained with double sword knows that just because you have two swords doesn't mean you make separate attacks with them, and they're just two parts of the same weapon, so to speak. Hence, one damage roll.

 

[Rune]

I think you may be making this more difficult than it has to be.

Simply say that each d20 roll when using Oath of Enmity represents an attack from a different weapon. Whichever rolls highest (and hits) is the weapon that deals the damage (and, if applicable, hit and/or crit effects). Or, if both hit, give him the choice of which weapon deals the damage and effects.

This gives him a slight boost in power by way of increasing options, but no actual mechanical advantage over the other Avenger.

If that doesn't satisfy him, build him a hybrid.

Edit= Ninja'd by an hour! That's what I get for having multiple threads open at the same time!

 

[DEFCON 1]

I concur with Saagael & Rune's ideas. Make the two rolls represent "two weapon" fluff.