D&D 5E Homebrewing a Cantrip

[Chaosmancer]

But, at any rate, that is ALL the cantrip does. Yours has everything else that goes with it: speed boost and disadvantage on OAs, even by creatures not damaged by the spell.

So, right there, your version is more powerful. You might think the trade-off of damage handles those riders, but that trade-off doesn't even come into play until 5th level. Just something for you to think about.

True, but AoO's and other attacks are also far more devastating at low levels, so this cantrip is the most powerful at the same time the disadvantages of it are the most powerful.

Actually, compared to the others, yours is less risky because it offers an escape option. The other two don't at all, and casters have to resort to another spell to escape. Frankly, I don't know if they are meant to be escape spells anyway.

I don't think they are meant to be escape spells, which is why I think they are considered so weak. Because to be good, they must be used in a situation where the normal goal is escape.

And I was mostly responding with "more risky" in terms of you saying you've seen swordburst followed by Misty Step. My version is more risky than misty step, because you can still get hit by the AoO's.

This could also be part of it, there is a HIGH tendency at my tables to see someone risk an AoO and get critted. It really happens more often than it should, and I've rarely seen AoO's miss unless the person had specific counters or used Shield. So, I'm not seeing the disadvantage as guaranteed misses. I'm seeing a likelihood they will still be hit. Whereas I think many other people are thinking of this being used with very high AC people, with the disadvantage making them next to untouchable.

You know, another option you might want to consider is to remove the damage completely. MAKE this an escape cantrip. Minor speed boost and disadvantage on OA I think by themselves would be reasonable for a cantrip. The damage is really so low, is it really that important??

My problem with that is if it is just the speed boost and the disadvantage is that it is a poor subsitute for either dashing (which is triple the extra speed) or disengaging (which is immunity from AoO's). I feel like it has to have the damage to make it worth the attempt with the other options you have available to just get out.

 

[Chaosmancer]

To briefly summarize:

Swordburst: (all creatures in range 5, Dex save) 1d6 force
Thunderclap: (all creatures in range 5, Con save) 1d6 thunder
Word of Radiance: (choose creatures in range 5, Con save) 1d6 radiant



Of these three cantrips, Thunderclap is less good. Monsters are likely to have high Con. Thunder is a good damage type, but less good than force and radiant.

Arguably, Swordburst is the best cantrip. Dex is meh, but better than Con. Force is the best damage type, even if only slightly better than radiant.

Word of Radiance is a good cantrip. Avoiding damage against allies is valuable. Then again, the range is only 5 feet, and that is easy to control to keep away from an ally. Radiant is great. Con is least good.



From least resisted damage type (best) to most resisted (worst):

force (best) ‹ radiant ‹ bludgeon ‹ slash
‹ pierce ‹ psychic ‹ thunder ‹ necrotic
‹ acid ‹ lightning
‹ cold ‹ fire ‹ poison (worst)



From the weakest monster save (best) to the strongest monster save (worst).

Int (best) ‹ Cha ‹ Wis ‹ Dex ‹ Str ‹ Con (worst)



So, I will use Swordburst as the basis to compare the homebrew cantrip.

One note, probably for lore and flavor reasons, Thunderclap is loud and easily heard from up to 100 ft away. This makes it harder to use because it ruins any attempts at stealth.

I'm not sure if this will affect your decision, but it is part of what makes this design space kind of wonky to me.

Thunderclap -> decent damage type, d6, con save isn't great, loud which is a negative
Sword burst -> best damage type, d6, dex save is pretty good, no other factors
Word of Radiance -> Good damage type, d6, con save isn't great, ignores allies is a positive.

It feels to me, that the rules for the AOE cantrips were never fully decided on.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It feels to me, that the rules for the AOE cantrips were never fully decided on.

Yes, well. That's how I feel about large portions of 5e's rules, so this is sort of par for the course for me.

But yeah, sword burst is pretty clearly much better than thunderclap. And if we compare it to at least my proposed version of stormwalk, sword burst has:

• a much better damage type (force vs lightning) in terms of resistances, though force doesn't interact with Sorcerer features, a minor point in stormwalk's favor
• a better save, if you go with Con for stormwalk
• slightly inferior starting damage (1d6 vs 1d6+2), but superior from level 5 up (2d6>1d6+3 about two thirds of the time) and clearly superior from 11 up (3d6>1d6+5 more than three quarters of the time.)
• no riders, and thus comparatively weaker than stormwalk

You could correct this by having the cantrip start with no scaling at all, and only gain +proficiency at level 11, or by dropping it to d4 (since 1d4+2 is only very, very slightly better than 1d6, and even 1d4+4 is clearly inferior to 2d6, as the maximum of the former is only one more than the average of the latter.) If you do go for the d4, at that point the ONLY selling point for stormwalk is the rider, in all other ways it sucks. If you stick with d6, it starts out as a slightly stronger damage option for a very bad tactical choice (seriously, low-level casters are WAY squishy), but fairly quickly becomes inferior damage even compared to other AoE cantrips.

 

[DND_Reborn]

True, but AoO's and other attacks are also far more devastating at low levels, so this cantrip is the most powerful at the same time the disadvantages of it are the most powerful.

Damage cantrips are either AoE without riders or single target with riders, but scale damage three times.

Now, depending on the levels you typically play, those damage boosts can come into play or not. IME most games only experience the single bump at 5th level, rarely at 11th, YMMV of course.

Since your version is AoE (selected targets could be a "rider" itself) and has riders (two: speed and disadvantage on OA), I don't think that equates to denying damage bumps once or maybe twice at most.

My problem with that is if it is just the speed boost and the disadvantage is that it is a poor subsitute for either dashing (which is triple the extra speed) or disengaging (which is immunity from AoO's). I feel like it has to have the damage to make it worth the attempt with the other options you have available to just get out.

If your goal is to allow casters to escape with better odds, and move further then they do, I would focus on that. You mention disengaging and dashing as options, it seems like you need a cantrip which allows both?

What about a cantrip that as a bonus action granted disadvantage on OA? You could use your action to dash for additional movement, but be a bit safer while navigating through/away from enemies?

I think that would be an acceptable cantrip. Wanting to also get damage in (even if minor) seems like having your cake and wanting to eat it, too.

 

[bedir than]

The better vs weaker saves as a balancing tool is really just fiddling at the margins. The difference is insignificant when compare to the dramatic difference in the riders for the RAW AoE cantrips and this new concept.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Why are people focusing so much on the damage aspect of this cantrip? Is it really that important to be dealing damage? the damage is not the core aspect of this cantrip IMO, people seem to be claiming that the weakness of the spell is that it’s not as effective as either dashing or disengaging but the thing is you usually can’t use your action to do both of those(barring specific exceptions) you can dash and risk a bunch of AoO or you can disengage and only have your standard movement.

So instead bump the speed increase to +15ft and all AoO have disadvantage for the rest of your turn for the cost of an action, you’re not quite as good as either but you’re getting a bit of the benefit of both, you’re moving further than standard movement and AoO aren’t as likely to hit.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Why are people focusing so much on the damage aspect of this cantrip? Is it really that important to be dealing damage? the damage is not the core aspect of this cantrip IMO, people seem to be claiming that the weakness of the spell is that it’s not as effective as either dashing or disengaging but the thing is you usually can’t use your action to do both of those(barring specific exceptions) you can dash and risk a bunch of AoO or you can disengage and only have your standard movement.

So instead bump the speed increase to +15ft and all AoO have disadvantage for the rest of your turn for the cost of an action, you’re not quite as good as either but you’re getting a bit of the benefit of both, you’re moving further than standard movement and AoO aren’t as likely to hit.

I don't know. Something about that solution doesn't sit right with me, but I don't know why. I'll think on it more.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It ended up coming to me, and it is a dumb reason, but it is a true reason.

Stormwalk to me implies power, and every time I picture it "in ficition" the character is striding forward.

If I was to do a cantrip that was an action to get +15 ft of movement and disadvantage on AoOs, I would call it something like Zephyr Stride, because it no longer has any elements of storm in it.

 

[CreamCloud0]

It ended up coming to me, and it is a dumb reason, but it is a true reason.

Stormwalk to me implies power, and every time I picture it "in ficition" the character is striding forward.

If I was to do a cantrip that was an action to get +15 ft of movement and disadvantage on AoOs, I would call it something like Zephyr Stride, because it no longer has any elements of storm in it.

Ah, but that’s more a matter of fluff and aesthetic flavour right? Rather than issues with the balance of the cantrip itself, say the extra speed is from blustering winds pushing the character onwards, the AoO disadvantage is from lightning bolts lancing off their body at anyone who gets near, that’s still imagery of a powerful storm.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Ah, but that’s more a matter of fluff and aesthetic flavour right? Rather than issues with the balance of the cantrip itself, say the extra speed is from blustering winds pushing the character onwards, the AoO disadvantage is from lightning bolts lancing off their body at anyone who gets near, that’s still imagery of a powerful storm.

Oh yeah, but mechanics and flavor should match when they can. If it was going to be just the movement and the AoO disadvantage, I'd reflavor and rename the spell.