D&D 5E Homebrewing a Cantrip

[EzekielRaiden]

If you look what I was responding to, it was what was proposed. I was commenting on it being problematic.

Ah. Must be someone who's got me on their ignore list then with reciprocal ignore. (I only ignore bots and other obvious not-a-human posters.) On my screen, it just looked like you were saying it would be too much damage because of adding the ability score to the damage.

Edit:
Er...no, that's not it at all. You were replying to me. Proficiency is not your casting modifier. Proficiency is your +2 to +6 bonus. A starting character would never get more than +2 on top of the existing damage. It would eventually become more than the best ability score bonus (going up to +6), but by that point other people will be rolling 4d4 for even the weakest possible regular cantrips, which is 10 damage on average (min 4, max 16) as opposed to the 9.5 average damage from 1d6+6 (min 7, max 12).

 

[Chaosmancer]

As I said - no appetite for it. Adding a penaltyto offset an advantage is a hard design choice to make work. Either people will find it too easy to avoid the penalty, or the penalty will be too restrictive in too many cases. But heck, for other opinions, others think my version is too strong ... so

I don't see it as a matter of appetite. I could make a spell that does 12d12 damage for a 1st level slot and balance it by reducing your hp to 1 and giving you three levels of exhaustion, but all I've done is make a spell no sane person would ever use except in a situation where the detriments won't affect them.

For the minor benefit of a little damage and a small speed boost, you are granting advantage against all attacks against you. This is a terrible trade-off. Enemies will attack you (you were already surrounded) and now you are very likely to get hit by any ranged attacks on the field.

Personally, I think some people are far over-valuing a d6 damage to multiple enemies within 5 ft. This isn't that good, in my opinion. Even at low level play, most enemies have more than 6 hp, and the average of a d6 is 3-4 damage. You may greatly wound three enemies, but you have to have been in a position where you potentially did or would take three attacks. And once you are past level 3 or so, you can be dealing with enemies with 20 hp, to whom this damage is a minor inconvenience.

...PCs are not an island, and other PCs could make you invisible, ... or you could have a reaction triggered invisibility.

If you have someone willing to drop invisibility on you on their turn, why would you use this cantrip to move away? Why not ready an action to dash when they cast the spell, getting you away without consequence and giving the enemies chasing you disadvantage to hit you, even if they decide it is worth while. And, why punish a player willing to sacrifice their action to make you invisible because you decided to use this cantrip?

I also don't think there is reaction triggered invisibility in the game? Fey Warlock can do it, but that's it. So, that concern seems to be designing for something that doesn't exist.

Most PCs start witha 16 or better in their cantrip ability, so we're talking about 1d6+3 at levels 1 to 4. That is a lot ofr an at will area of effect. Tossing extra abilities on top of it is over the top. Giving it a harder to save against saving throw, adding a speed bonus, adding extra damage, and preventing OAs ... at no offset cost versus an existing cantrip for levels 1 to 4. The reduction in efficiency at laster levels is irrelevant - breaking levels 1 to 4 is a problem that can't be overlooked.

Not Spell mod to damage, Prof mod.

Though @EzekielRaiden I think that is a thing to consider. I still prefer 1d6 then 2d6 at 11th level, but for your version is it too strong to have Blue Dragon Sorcerers or Clerics who got this via a feat to have 1d6+3+3 damage? I don't think it is that bad, but would cap at 1d6+11 if they have a way to add mod.

 

[Chaosmancer]

As a bonus action cantrip I'd take this on almost every character that could possibly qualify for it. Non-resource consuming bonus actions that do anything remotely useful are hard to come by for many classes.

As a normal action cantrip I'd never take it for any character ever, in any of the proposed formulations, because the "character who isn't good enough at melee to be better off just staying in melee is in melee with multiple enemies" scenario is a once-in-a-while scenario, albeit an important one, for which I might well want to learn a leveled spell, spend the resources and have something truly effective happen, but which I want to avoid having happen often enough to invest a known cantrip in.

Now, I am curious, would there be an action formulation that you do think would be worth it? Because I have often seen people taking Shocking Grasp because it will allow them to attack and run away by shutting off reactions. So, I do think there are some people who will see a movement buff and disadvantage on AoO's and decide it is worthwhile.

 

[Chaosmancer]

By the way, I want to go ahead and clear up my proposed version, because now we have a lot of them and people are responding to different versions that do and don't exist. This is the version I am currently favoring.

Chaosmancer's Stormwalk
Evocation cantrip
Casting time: 1 action
Range: Self (5-foot radius)
Components: V, S,
Duration: 1 Round

A stormy aura surrounds you, rumbling with thunder as you walk. Creatures of your choice within 5 ft of you when you cast the spell make a dexterity saving throw against 1d6 lighting damage. The storm enhances your speed, increasing your movement speed by +10 feet until the start of your next turn. While your speed is enhanced in this way, attacks of opportunity against you have disadvantage.

At 11th level, the damage increases to 2d6

 

[Chaosmancer]

Cantrip design is usually "a bit of damage + something else", a "rider" so you will. The AOE is such a rider. If the cantrip allows you to have an AOE and another rider, it's too much IMO.

I'm not sure if this is true. Or if it is true, the AOE seems to be a poor rider, because again, I've never seen someone actually utilize an AOE cantrip more than once or twice.

To me, the range on a cantrip that can be fired 60 to 120 ft away from danger is a far better rider than a 5 ft AOE, because the risk is incredibly minimal to the caster.

 

[bedir than]

I still think it should be a d4, because it does more than Sword Burst or Thunderclap

 

[Ancalagon]

I'm not sure if this is true. Or if it is true, the AOE seems to be a poor rider, because again, I've never seen someone actually utilize an AOE cantrip more than once or twice.

To me, the range on a cantrip that can be fired 60 to 120 ft away from danger is a far better rider than a 5 ft AOE, because the risk is incredibly minimal to the caster.

It's more of a "niche" cantrip. You are 100% right that for 90, 95% of casters it's a bad pick. But in my drakkenheim campaign I have a warforged amorsmith artificer who's not afraid of the front line - to him it makes sense.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Though @EzekielRaiden I think that is a thing to consider. I still prefer 1d6 then 2d6 at 11th level, but for your version is it too strong to have Blue Dragon Sorcerers or Clerics who got this via a feat to have 1d6+3+3 damage? I don't think it is that bad, but would cap at 1d6+11 if they have a way to add mod.

Personally, I don't think so. Again, lightning is a somewhat weak type for damage, as it doesn't have the higher potency associated with fire, nor a stable of enemies weak to it (as noted, there is literally only ONE official creature in 5e weak to lightning damage, and it's in a single adventure, not even a regular monster book.)

Overall though, 3d10+5 (average 21.5, min 8, max 35) is still going to outshine 1d6+11 (average 14.5, min 12, max 17). It has slightly higher minimum damage, but less than half the maximum damage, and the average damage is about 2/3 that of fire bolt. Admittedly, due to the absence of thunder-type dragons (which has always confused me, given the excess of fire-based ones), thunderclap specifically requires an Evoker wizard to maximize, though acid splash offers a very close alternative since...you REALLY shouldn't be having more than 2 creatures engaged in melee if you're a squishy Sorcerer, and even 2 is highly undesirable.

More or less, we're looking at whether folks who highly specialize in dealing damage, with a spell that is inferior for doing damage in any situation other than having two or more enemies adjacent to you, are better than a perfectly average character with no specific specialization using a reliable high-damage spell. That seems like a rather biased comparison; of course someone who's specialized in lightning damage (if a Sorcerer) or in generically doing damage with Evocation spells (if an Evoker) should be getting more oomph out of this. They'll also be getting more oomph out of other, better cantrips, e.g. lightning lure or shocking grasp for the Sorcerer or fire bolt or ray of frost for the Evoker.

It's more of a "niche" cantrip. You are 100% right that for 90, 95% of casters it's a bad pick. But in my drakkenheim campaign I have a warforged amorsmith artificer who's not afraid of the front line - to him it makes sense.

I mean, I wouldn't put this cantrip on any spell list except Sorcerer and Wizard, so that's not really an issue. A Bard that sinks magical secrets, or a character that blows a whole MC class level, into picking up just this cantrip is paying top dollar for meager benefit. No one else would have access to it, because it's homebrew. Hell, I might even say "only Sorcerers and Evoker Wizards can learn this spell," to really prevent any shenanigans with Bladesinger or Magic Initiate or the like.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Chaosmancer's Stormwalk
Evocation cantrip
Casting time: 1 action
Range: Self (5-foot radius)
Components: V, S,
Duration: 1 Round

A stormy aura surrounds you, rumbling with thunder as you walk. Creatures of your choice within 5 ft of you when you cast the spell make a dexterity saving throw against 1d6 lighting damage. The storm enhances your speed, increasing your movement speed by +10 feet until the start of your next turn. While your speed is enhanced in this way, attacks of opportunity against you have disadvantage.

At 11th level, the damage increases to 2d6

This was precisely what I thought you meant / had in mind when I posted before.

As a cantrip, it is too strong. Multiple targets (especially only ones YOU CHOOSE, which isn't a thing for cantrips with multiple damage IIRC), scaling damage (even if once, which bucks the system for cantrips), enhanced speed, and disadvantage on OA (not just from the targets who failed their saves, but ANYONE while you are moving that turn!).

By means of comparison, the one I offer increases speed as the only guarantee. Only ONE target can take damage, damage is lower (but scales more normally), and only that target has disadvantage on OA against you. While still strong for a cantrip, it is a bit more reasonable IMO.

However, if your version is what you want and everyone is fine with it, good enough.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It's more of a "niche" cantrip. You are 100% right that for 90, 95% of casters it's a bad pick. But in my drakkenheim campaign I have a warforged amorsmith artificer who's not afraid of the front line - to him it makes sense.

Well, I do want to be careful not to get caught up in thinking too much of specific builds. That's the sort of thing that makes people say Blade Ward is amazing.... as long as you are a 6th level bladesinger who can attack and cast it.

But, thinking of a heavily armored, High AC Armorsmith... yes, this would be a good cantrip for them to escape after getting beat down. But I don't know if it is good enough to be too good. After all, it is far less damage than his punch, and depending on the ruling of Booming Blade at your table, far far far less than his punch. But I'm seeing "it makes sense and is good" not "this is far too powerful and better than everything else" from thinking about it in that specific situation. Yes, it will allow a high AC melee caster to more easily disengage from a group, but in terms of damage, I don't know if slightly injuring 3 to 4 enemies is better than doing much more significant damage to a single enemy and triggering your class abilities. I mean, even if you don't have booming blade two attacks for 2d8+4 is 13 damage, you'd need to have four enemies fail the same against stormwalk to get the same, and 4 damage to four enemies with 20 hp isn't as good as 13 damage to one, in my opinion.