D&D 5E Homebrewing a Cantrip

[Chaosmancer]

As a cantrip, it is too strong. Multiple targets (especially only ones YOU CHOOSE, which isn't a thing for cantrips with multiple damage IIRC),

It is?

Looks

Okay, this is odd. Sword burst is dex save, all targets, 1d6 force. Thunderclap is con save, all targets, 1d6 thunder, Loud. Word of Radiance is con save, targets of choice, 1d6 radiant.

This design space is weird and the only consistent thing is that 5 ft aoe cantrips deal 1d6 damage. And again, I'm not sure these cantrips are even good. There is a breakdown on rpgbot.net that says these cantrips are better than a melee fighter when you can deal damage to three targets.

The problem I find is that this comparison was against a 1 handed melee weapon with no styles, and the moment you change that assumption, you find this isn't that cut and dry. Sure, if the fighter is dealing 1d8+3 they have 7.5 and against three failed saves the cantrip does 10.5. But if you are a fighter using Dueling, that is 1d8+5 or 9.5 damage. Much closer. If you are a fighter using a greatsword, you are dealing 2d6+3 with the style giving +1 and that is 11 damage. Better than three failed saves with the cantrip. (double checking, they do show the weapons in a second chart)

And this I think also ignores the high risk behavior inherent in these cantrips. To be as good as a martial you need three targets, next to you, that all fail their save. If even one makes their save, then you have done less damage. And unlike most heavily armored melee fighters with high hp... you don't have those things. Additionally, you've rarely done enough damage to actually kill those targets, so you have three attacks coming at you. So, to be even worth the action for the damage, you need to put yourself in the worst possible position. I just don't see that as viable.

scaling damage (even if once, which bucks the system for cantrips),

Yeah, scaling only once bucks the system. But I'm fine bucking the system on this. Going up to 4d6 feels too powerful considering the riders, but cantrips that don't scale like Shillelagh, Magic Stone, ect are often derided because while they are good early game, mid to late game the lack of scaling makes them feel worthless.

enhanced speed, and disadvantage on OA (not just from the targets who failed their saves, but ANYONE while you are moving that turn!).

Yes, this is the point. I don't see very many people choosing to take their caster and use this to run deeper into the enemy lines, but mostly the disadvantage on everyone is just an ease of use thing. Making it too specific like one of the previous iterations

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By means of comparison, the one I offer increases speed as the only guarantee. Only ONE target can take damage, damage is lower (but scales more normally), and only that target has disadvantage on OA against you. While still strong for a cantrip, it is a bit more reasonable IMO.

However, if your version is what you want and everyone is fine with it, good enough.

I guess my issue with your version is why would I take this instead of shocking grasp? Shocking Grasp is better damage, on an attack roll that may have advantage , and prevents the AoO entirely. The movement increase is better, but defensively, this falls short.

 

[Yaarel]

Notice, other spells from the spell list in Sword Coast and Elemental Evil later became part of Tashas and Xanathars. They went from setting to core.

But these area-damage cantrips failed to transition. It seems like the designers are quietly obsoleting them. They are unlikely to exist in 50e in 2024.

Even an area damage of 1d4 is probably too much for a cantrip − and this small amount of damage feels unsatisfying. It would only be useful in a swarm or getting flanked by several low hp creatures.

Switching from area damage to single target both becomes more useful and allows more design space for the proposed cantrip to do other kinds of effects like move.

 

[Yaarel]

What if the gusting wind doesnt do damage but does improve the AC of the cantrip caster, while moving? Then lightning damage could target one creature with an arc of electricity.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Okay, this is odd. Sword burst is dex save, all targets, 1d6 force. Thunderclap is con save, all targets, 1d6 thunder, Loud. Word of Radiance is con save, targets of choice, 1d6 radiant.

This design space is weird and the only consistent thing is that 5 ft aoe cantrips deal 1d6 damage. And again, I'm not sure these cantrips are even good. There is a breakdown on rpgbot.net that says these cantrips are better than a melee fighter when you can deal damage to three targets.

I don't compare cantrips to damage by a melee fighter, but cantrip to cantrip:

Like you said, Sword Burst and Thunderclap both deal d6 damage, but to ALL creatures, not chosen ones. In this respect, your cantrip is stronger.

And this I think also ignores the high risk behavior inherent in these cantrips. To be as good as a martial you need three targets, next to you, that all fail their save. If even one makes their save, then you have done less damage. And unlike most heavily armored melee fighters with high hp... you don't have those things. Additionally, you've rarely done enough damage to actually kill those targets, so you have three attacks coming at you. So, to be even worth the action for the damage, you need to put yourself in the worst possible position. I just don't see that as viable.

Those two cantrips are used more defensively IME when a caster finds themselves surrounded (or nearly so). They allow you to soften up a large number of creatures in one instance. Often, after the cantrip, the PC will misty step to escape as a bonus action.

Yeah, scaling only once bucks the system. But I'm fine bucking the system on this. Going up to 4d6 feels too powerful considering the riders, but cantrips that don't scale like Shillelagh, Magic Stone, ect are often derided because while they are good early game, mid to late game the lack of scaling makes them feel worthless.

Shillelagh and Magic Stone aren't direct damage cantrips, however, and this is. 4d6 only feels too strong because this has multiple riders.

FWIW, I feel Shillelagh and Magic Stone should scale, and our house-rules for them do;

Shillelagh becomes a +1 weapon at 5th level, +2 at 11th and +3 at 17th.
Magic Stone creates an additional piece of ammunition (not just stone for us, but arrows as well) at 5th, 11th and 17th levels.

Most games don't even get to "late game" space, so IME these cantrips (even before the house-rules) were always decent, if not great early on. YMMV, of course.

Yes, this is the point. I don't see very many people choosing to take their caster and use this to run deeper into the enemy lines, but mostly the disadvantage on everyone is just an ease of use thing. Making it too specific like one of the previous iterations

Running past other enemies doesn't necessarily mean you are running deeper into their lines... I was actually imagining running away from the lines and bypassing those who had advanced beyond the party's "line".

I guess my issue with your version is why would I take this instead of shocking grasp? Shocking Grasp is better damage, on an attack roll that may have advantage , and prevents the AoO entirely. The movement increase is better, but defensively, this falls short.

Yep, it is a trade-off. Better damage for no movement boost. That IMO keeps them on par with each other actually.

Also, the attack may or may not have advantage, but if you miss you get nothing. In my version, you still get the +10 to speed.

Finally, as I've said, if you like your version and your group feels it is ok, go with it. However, I do feel mine is more in line power-wise with other cantrips and also designed more like them. Use it or not, I'm just offering it as an alternative which I feel is better balanced.

Cheers!

 

[Chaosmancer]

Notice, other spells from the spell list in Sword Coast and Elemental Evil later became part of Tashas and Xanathars. They went from setting to core.

But these area-damage cantrips failed to transition. It seems like the designers are quietly obsoleting them. They are unlikely to exist in 50e in 2024.

Um... completely wrong?

Word of Radiance and Thunderclap are in Xanathar's guide. Sword Burst is in Tasha's. So, none of these have "failed to transition" they were released as late as Tasha's.

Even an area damage of 1d4 is probably too much for a cantrip − and this small amount of damage feels unsatisfying. It would only be useful in a swarm or getting flanked by several low hp creatures.

Switching from area damage to single target both becomes more useful and allows more design space for the proposed cantrip to do other kinds of effects like move.

I still don't see a lot of evidence that AOEs are somehow forbidden in cantrips. This seems to be based on a lot of misinformation.

 

[Yaarel]

Um... completely wrong?

Word of Radiance and Thunderclap are in Xanathar's guide. Sword Burst is in Tasha's. So, none of these have "failed to transition" they were released as late as Tasha's.

I still don't see a lot of evidence that AOEs are somehow forbidden in cantrips. This seems to be based on a lot of misinformation.

You are right.

I was relying on a digital search which credited the earlier book but not the later book. I wrongly assumed it wasnt in the later book. Sure enough, when I checked my hard copy, the cantrips are there.

Now that it is clear the designer are ok with area-damage cantrips, let me look more carefully at them.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don't compare cantrips to damage by a melee fighter, but cantrip to cantrip:

Like you said, Sword Burst and Thunderclap both deal d6 damage, but to ALL creatures, not chosen ones. In this respect, your cantrip is stronger.

But also like I said Word of Radiance does a d6 to only chosen creatures, so in that respect my cantrip is the same. So, why does sword burst hit everyone and word of radiance doesn't? shrug I can't figure out a good reason for it.

And yes, I would also compare cantrip to cantrip damage, but that is a max of 4d10 (22 damage) at 120 ft of safety versus a max of 2d6 (7) against multiple targets, with an increase movement speed and a change to get to safety. Even if you have three target and get almost as much damage as firebolt, you either stay in melee (dangerous) or you move and risk AoO's. Firebolt does not risk you getting hit. And that tells me that this cantrip is fine.

Those two cantrips are used more defensively IME when a caster finds themselves surrounded (or nearly so). They allow you to soften up a large number of creatures in one instance. Often, after the cantrip, the PC will misty step to escape as a bonus action.

And my cantrip just offers a more risky escape option. For less damage. But I think this again points to these cantrips not being very good, because the most viable path is to use them, then use a 2nd level spell to run.

Shillelagh and Magic Stone aren't direct damage cantrips, however, and this is. 4d6 only feels too strong because this has multiple riders.

FWIW, I feel Shillelagh and Magic Stone should scale, and our house-rules for them do;

Shillelagh becomes a +1 weapon at 5th level, +2 at 11th and +3 at 17th.
Magic Stone creates an additional piece of ammunition (not just stone for us, but arrows as well) at 5th, 11th and 17th levels.

Most games don't even get to "late game" space, so IME these cantrips (even before the house-rules) were always decent, if not great early on. YMMV, of course.

I'm not sure what kind of distinction we should be making about them being "direct damage" or "indirect damage". How does that inform the design and balance?

And, yes, 4d6 feels strong because of the riders. That's kind of the point? I'm reducing the maximum damage because of the riders. But also, I think 4d6 on a 5ft aoe with no riders is... kind of too weak.

Anyways, my rewrite for Shillelagh and Magic Stone was a bit simpler. Magic stone does 2d6 at 11th and 3d6 at 17th (more ammo doesn't do anything for this cantrip? Literally the only value that would have is if your spellcasting modifer is higher than the other characters attack modifier. Which unless you are specifically giving them to a strength character who has to hit a target beyound 30 ft, will basically never come up? And even then, that is hyper specific). Shillelagh becomes 2d8 at level 11. I didn't raise it any higher, because it is possible to combine Shillelagh with feats to get much better damage, unlike Magic Stone.

Running past other enemies doesn't necessarily mean you are running deeper into their lines... I was actually imagining running away from the lines and bypassing those who had advanced beyond the party's "line".

That would be my preferred use with it. Why is that too powerful to allow? It seems to me that you are in such a bad situation where you have three enemies next to you, and more enemies between you and safety, that having a mildly good option is perfectly fine? They still get the chance TO make AoO's, which they wouldn't if the cast just used disengage instead. Which is a guaranteed zero damage from running away.

Yep, it is a trade-off. Better damage for no movement boost. That IMO keeps them on par with each other actually.

Also, the attack may or may not have advantage, but if you miss you get nothing. In my version, you still get the +10 to speed.

Finally, as I've said, if you like your version and your group feels it is ok, go with it. However, I do feel mine is more in line power-wise with other cantrips and also designed more like them. Use it or not, I'm just offering it as an alternative which I feel is better balanced.

Cheers!

Yeah, I'm just trying to dig into the design here and make sure I'm considering as many angles as I can.

 

[bedir than]

FWIW, I feel Shillelagh and Magic Stone should scale, and our house-rules for them do;

Shillelagh becomes a +1 weapon at 5th level, +2 at 11th and +3 at 17th.
Magic Stone creates an additional piece of ammunition (not just stone for us, but arrows as well) at 5th, 11th and 17th levels.

Oooh. I like that. If a player takes either I would grant the scaling.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Oooh. I like that. If a player takes either I would grant the scaling.

LOL enjoy! We use them and it works for us.

But also like I said Word of Radiance does a d6 to only chosen creatures, so in that respect my cantrip is the same

For some reason I was confusing Word of Radiance with Sacred Flame, thinking it only targeted one creature.

But, at any rate, that is ALL the cantrip does. Yours has everything else that goes with it: speed boost and disadvantage on OAs, even by creatures not damaged by the spell.

So, right there, your version is more powerful. You might think the trade-off of damage handles those riders, but that trade-off doesn't even come into play until 5th level. Just something for you to think about.

And my cantrip just offers a more risky escape option. For less damage.

Actually, compared to the others, yours is less risky because it offers an escape option. The other two don't at all, and casters have to resort to another spell to escape. Frankly, I don't know if they are meant to be escape spells anyway.

You know, another option you might want to consider is to remove the damage completely. MAKE this an escape cantrip. Minor speed boost and disadvantage on OA I think by themselves would be reasonable for a cantrip. The damage is really so low, is it really that important??

Yeah, I'm just trying to dig into the design here and make sure I'm considering as many angles as I can.

No worries. If I can help challenge your design for the better, cool!.

 

[Yaarel]

To briefly summarize:

Swordburst: (all creatures in range 5, Dex save) 1d6 force
Thunderclap: (all creatures in range 5, Con save) 1d6 thunder
Word of Radiance: (choose creatures in range 5, Con save) 1d6 radiant



Of these three cantrips, Thunderclap is less good. Monsters are likely to have high Con. Thunder is a good damage type, but less good than force and radiant.

Arguably, Swordburst is the best cantrip. Dex is meh, but better than Con. Force is the best damage type, even if only slightly better than radiant.

Word of Radiance is a good cantrip. Avoiding damage against allies is valuable. Then again, the range is only 5 feet, and that is easy to control to keep away from an ally. Radiant is great. Con is least good.



From least resisted damage type (best) to most resisted (worst):

force (best) ‹ radiant ‹ bludgeon ‹ slash
‹ pierce ‹ psychic ‹ thunder ‹ necrotic
‹ acid ‹ lightning
‹ cold ‹ fire ‹ poison (worst)



From the weakest monster save (best) to the strongest monster save (worst).

Int (best) ‹ Cha ‹ Wis ‹ Dex ‹ Str ‹ Con (worst)



So, I will use Swordburst as the basis to compare the homebrew cantrip.