D&D 4E Hopefully D&D 4E will give us feats every level . . .

[CM]

I'm running a Dark Sun game that has gone from 1st to 4th level in about four months. We're using 32-point-buy, and all characters get a feat every level rather than every third. Permanent magic items are quite rare (the party has only one, a crystal that casts cure light wounds a few times per day). The extra feats nicely offset the lack of magic items, and eliminate some of the more ridiculous aspects of the game such as running back to town to buy/sell/identify magic items.

A few people have mentioned that characters will start to look identical with more feats. I have been seeing the opposite effect. When the game started, I warned the players not to overspecialize in one tactic, since everything in Dark Sun would be new and wonderous to them. The players are taking advantage of the extra feats by branching out into other tactical and roleplaying options an optimized character normally wouldn't want to try with the regular feat progression. When 3.5 launched I began compiling a feats document for our group's use, and the players have access to it as well. It's over 60 pages long, so there's always something new and fun for them to try out.

 

[Ranger REG]

Feats are fun. Feats open up a large number of possibilities and really help customize a character.

I want a feat every time I gain a level. I'd happily sacrifice class features for a feat each and every level.

I hope not. It would diminish the fighter's class feature of offering a bonus fighter feat every 2 levels.

 

[Darkness]

I hope not. It would diminish the fighter's class feature of offering a bonus fighter feat every 2 levels.

That's a 3e feature. We don't know what a hypothetical 4e Fighter would look like.

 

[Gez]

See, I prefer to have classes offering a class feature every level and character feats every three levels than the reverse.

Which is why I've modified all character classes so that they give little abilities -- not necessarily powerful or even useful, but always flavorful -- to reduce as much as possible the "mute" levels so many are plagged with.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

God, I hope not! Creating high-level NPCs is enough of a hassle as it is - if I had to choose a feat for every level it would take me forever to finish my prep time.

I've got nothing against the ability to choose from lots of special abilities as such. However, large numbers of options work best for pure "point buy" systems, like Mutants & Masterminds or GURPS. With these, it is easy to choose only the feats or advantages directly relevant to the NPC character concept while putting the rest of the points in attributes or skills. With D&D, having to select too many feats is simply too much work...

 

[Steverooo]

Yet Another Idea

Copyright 2005 by SteveC. All rights reserved.

My idea was 1 Feat/Level, in addition to all the Feats the various classes receive now, but the extra feats were from a list which was different for each and every class... Most all class abilities would be feats, but not every class could get them as part of their list. Many/most would still have pre-requisites. All classes would get Skill Focus: (Any Class Skill), as well as any of the +2/+2 feats that fit their capabilities (Deft Hands for Rogues, Alertness for Druids and Rangers, etc.)

Fighters would get their choice of a Fighter Feat at each level, with a few new ones added. See below, for some ideas on those.

Druids would get their Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Wildshape, Poison Immunity, etc., but on levels where they got nothing new (which are few, for them), they could get some feats like Wild Casting (or whatever it's called, where you can cast spells in animal form), Beastform (where they can become magical beasts), Beastcasting (where they can cast spells in beastform), Beastspeech (speaking to Magical Beasts while in their form), Elemental Speech (speaking the elemental tongues for one skill point/level - do they already get that? I can't recall...). They would share some feats with Rangers, and fewer with Barbarians and, perhaps, Rogues or Clerics. Multi-Attack and Pounce also "spring" to mind... (Eagle's) Claw would allow the unarmed attacks to do slashing damage, as well as non-lethal or blunt, and be shared with Monks and Rangers, and perhaps Barbarians.

Barbarians could get some combat and general feats, as well as a limited form of Wildshape, so that Barbarians of the Wolf Totem (for instance) could become any form of wolf (up to and including Dire, at some level) of their hit dice or less, but not be able to turn into anything else (at least not without expending another feat). Another feat would allow Small/Large-sized critters of the same type. Other feats might increase speed, again, etc.

For Monks (and Fighters, and perhaps a few others), feats include Improved Unarmed Strike, Slam (making unarmed damage 1D6), Improved Slam (1D8), Greater Slam, Improved Greater Slam, etc., until 1D20 is reached... Fighters would get cut off, before this point, leaving Monks the best at unarmed combat. Rangers and Druids would get some access, but the Druid would be cut off before the Fighter/Ranger. All Slam Feats would require Improved Unarmed Strike as a pre-requisite, and each level also requires the previous levels. The Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, etc. chain, Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, etc., which are now Monk Level-choices would also be part of their list of feats.

Clerics and Paladins would have some combat feats (Clerics limited to blunt weapons, only, unless they had the War Domain, in which case they'd also get their deity's favored weapon), Extra Turning, Item Creation, and Meta-Magic Feats, as well as a few new ones. These might include the Domain Powers (such as Clerics of the Plant Domain being able to turn plants, for instance). Paladins would get more combat feats (of all types), and fewer magical ones. Feats reflecting their deity should be added, although this might be hard to do. It could certainly be done for the ones in the book.

Rangers would get some Combat & General Feats, some Barbarian/Druid.Rogue-like feats, and a Feat Chain based off of Alertness that lead them through Hawk-Eyed, Catseye (Low-light vision), Darksight, and other such sensory skills (like Tremorsense). They could also pick up Trapsense, Nature Sense, already get Woodland Stride, might select Trackless Step, or have the ability to track it, pick up some Sneak Attack (making sure that they are always worse than the Rogue, however), and some animal abilities as per the Druid (limited Wildshape, Multi-Attack, Pounce, etc.) They would be the best at travelling (by non-magical means), tracking, and survival.

Sorcerers should get all of the Meta-Magic Feats that they can use, all of the Item Creation Feats that they can use, as well as some General and a few Combat Feats. Improved Familiar and Improved Counterspell spring to mind. Some new, Sorcerer-only Feats need to be developed, and added to the list... Perhaps a Dragon-blooded Feat Chain, similar to the Dragon Disciple Prestige Class, in some ways... perhaps others. Some might allow them to learn another two spells/Feat...

Wizards get their Meta-Magic & Item Creation Feats, as well as some General ones, and a very few Combat Feats. Others might include (X)-Substitution Feats, where a damage type (Acid/Cold/Fire/Flame/Heat/Poison/Positive/Negative Energy/Whatever) could be substituted in for another type (turning a Fireball into a Coldball, for instance).

Bards would get General, Combat, and some Druid & Rogue Feats, as well as ones allowing them to replace damage types with Sonic damage, making them the best will Sonic spells.

Rogues would get the abilities that they have now, plus General and some Combat Feats. They would also have a Notice Feat (shared with Rangers who have taken Trapsense as a pre-requisite, followed by Notice) that lets them use Listen, Search, or Spot at 1/2 skill bonus (rounded down) even when not actively searching... Hence, a Rogue who is searching for traps operates normally. One who is *NOT* searching still gets to roll, and add 1/2 his skill (rounded down) to see if he NOTICES it... This would greatly speed up play!

In all cases, WotC (or the GM) needs to create a list of Feats for each class, figure out what each class is best at, and make sure that they REMAIN THE BEST at what they do... Rangers should not have feats making them better locksmiths than Rogues, nor Barbarians be better travellers than Rangers, nor Fighters better sneak-attackers than Rogues. Bards should be better at Lore & Sonics than Wizards, but Wizards and Sorcerers better at most other types of spells (although WotC seems to think that Bards are the best Diviners...)

In any case, I think that something fair and balanced could be worked out for ALL the classes, letting Barbarians be the strong ragers, Bards be the Snic Loremasters (and Diviners), Clerics be the best at whatever their deity represents, Druids be the best shapeshifters, Fighters be the best at MOST forms of combat (while leaving Monks the best at unarmed combat), Paladins the best at mounted combat (and second-best at other forms & Undead-turning), Rangers the best at non-magical wilderness travel, Scouting, Survival, and Tracking, Rogues the best at Locks & Traps, Sorcerers the best at untrained casting, and Wizards the best at book-learned casting. Tough, but doable!

Along the way, Rangers & Paladins need to be given Orisons, and gain them at third or fourth level, increasing until they have five. Then they need a Feat which allows them Spontaneous Casting, which they can choose from their list. Wizards can do this with Spell Mastery. Clerics shouldn't have access to it, unless (say) they worship a deity of Spontanaity!

Well, there's my $1.20 on it...

 

[Bront]

See, I prefer to have classes offering a class feature every level and character feats every three levels than the reverse.

Which is why I've modified all character classes so that they give little abilities -- not necessarily powerful or even useful, but always flavorful -- to reduce as much as possible the "mute" levels so many are plagged with.

That was one of the things I generaly liked about 3.5 is that they got rid of many of the "mute" levels, at least with most of the classes that get different special abilities at different levels.

I don't have too much of a problenm with how the classes and feats are structured (Gives players a reason to take the fighter, and makes him special). I do like how many of the classes have moved to a few more flexable powers, like specific bonus feats to select, or a choice of a few special powers. I think more of that is needed to allow for additional character customization.

With feats being rare, you have to pick and choose your feats, and plan a bit ahead to get what you are aiming at. If you strip that away, or turn everything into feats, you no longer have a class based system (which could be cool still, but would be different)

 

[Gez]

I just thought about it -- you may look at d20 Modern. There, all six classes gives you one bonus feat every two levels, and one feat-like class-exclusive perk every two other levels. This, in addition to the feat every three character levels, and the two starting first-level feats.

This could be the way to go for Philreed -- replace the D&D character classes by d20 Modern character classes, and instead of alternating between bonus general feats and bonus perks (forgot the actual game name), alternate between bonus general feats and bonus specialized feats. Maybe even make some of them exclusive to a class, like Weapon Specialization, and take some class abilities and turn them into exclusive feats (like spellcasting, undead turning, laying on hands, etc.).

 

[JBowtie]

Blue Rose does this. They only have three classes (adept, warrior, and expert). They show sample feat and skill selections for some twenty or more "classes". The upcoming book will show full, twenty-level buildouts for each of these.

EDIT: I want to emphasize that a Blue Rose character gets a feat every level. The original post didn't seem to make that clear.

It helps that magic is a skills-and-feat system (adapted from Psychic's Handbook); this greatly expands the list of magic-related feats to be on par with the number of combat feats. Many class abilities (such as trapfinding) end up as skill-related feats.

In many ways, I'd say that the Blue Rose rules represent a second-generation version of the d20 engine; if you replaced the "romantic fantasy" setting with something closer to the default setting, you could imagine it as 4E....

For the record, I'm finding character generation is really streamlined. Not having to worry about rolling (six-point buy), skill points (all skills assumed at max ranks), spell lists (selection based on feats), gold pieces (wealth system similar to D20 Modern) speeds things up yonks. Also feat every level means I don't have to do any math to figure out how many feats a 10th level character gets - in 3E I have to divide by three and count bonus feats.

They're all little things, but for my money I already have my 4E. I just need (IMO) to round out the spells and feats to reflect the themes of my campaign world.

 

[Soel]

I am inbetween on the idea myself. I love more feats (as long as your have a lot to choose from) because they equal more options. I also don't want feats to become "oh, its time for another one, eh? I guess I'll go with Toughness again," or for every character to be good at everything.

Leaning towards the 1/2 level variant, but who knows how it'll turn out...