[Hordes of the Abyss] Using, rather than changing

[Mouseferatu]

This. Is. Not. The. Thread. For. This.

Take it elsewhere please.

I'm gonna go with Pants on this, Nightfall. There are plenty of threads that discuss the relative merits of statting/not statting the archfiends, and how to do so. I'd like to keep this thread focused on ideas--mine and others'--that make use of them as written and build off of that.

 

[Glyfair]

The demons of the Abyss are all about chaos and random violence. They're not devils. They don't have a strict hierarchy.

So what about a version of the multiverse where the demon lords really aren't much more powerful than other powerful demons? Maybe Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, et al. haven't been lords and princes for millennia, but they just happen to be the ones who are in control at the moment? There's a part of me that finds a great deal of appeal in the notion that the ranks of the demon lords shift on a semi-regular basis, maybe even as frequently as several times a century. I think, if played properly, it could actually add to the chaotic feel of the Abyss, and further differentiate the demons from their lawful Hellish counterparts, who do have a strict hierarchy that has lasted (more or less) for thousands of years. It would also lead to a lot of conflicts between demonic cults, as the Abyssal struggles for ascension are mirrored in their mortal servants.

Again, not in-line with planar material as written, but I think it could make for a really interesting variant.

I actually was thinking something like this. I had less shifting, but the leaders were the guys with leadership (even Juiblex has "things" attracted to him"). They are powerful, not because of their raw power, but because they have beings of raw power surrounding them.

 

[Nightfall]

Fine, fine. I'll take my Orcus plushie with me and go.

 

[BryonD]

I'm gonna go with Pants on this, Nightfall. There are plenty of threads that discuss the relative merits of statting/not statting the archfiends, and how to do so. I'd like to keep this thread focused on ideas--mine and others'--that make use of them as written and build off of that.

I'm thinking bird cages maybe.....





Seriously, you did mention "canon" and I think Nightfall's reply touches on why that misses the point. These issues are not tied to any certain canon. You can change every element of canon from pantheons to cosmologies to geographies and the classic demon lords stay in as part of standard D&D. There are already a vast multitude of variant canons which contain these entities. So coming up with one new story doesn't fix the issues of messing with the underlying power balance expectations.

I could come up with a story for a world where fireball was 5th level and wish was 4th. But just because that may fit my new canon does not mean it is not a bad thing for the power scales of D&D. And saying that people who did not like it were just hung up on canon would also be wrong.

Misrepresenting the counter position of others and then suggesting they should not reply is not exactly fair.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I could come up with a story for a world where fireball was 5th level and wish was 4th. But just because that may fit my new canon does not mean it is not a bad thing for the power scales of D&D. And saying that people who did not like it were just hung up on canon would also be wrong.

Except that this is a bad analogy. A more appropriate one would be "how many Hit Dice should a top-end red dragon have?" I can give you many answers based off many editions. And trying to claim that the power of demon lords is somehow more fixed in D&D than "pantheons [or] cosmologies" is really missing the point, since that power is an entirely related issue to cosmology and to individual campaigns.

 

[Imruphel]

I like your ideas, Mouseferatu.

One of my main complaints with the design of the tanar'ri is that there is little about them to suggest that they are embodiments of chaos as much as embodiments of evil. Your suggestion takes care of part of that.

 

[Joshua Randall]

You could run an entire campaign in which the players witness and influence the ebb and flow of Abyssal politics. Maybe the players are various minor demons who rise through the ranks and try to overthrow the (current) lord. Maybe the players are evil PCs who decide to carve out their own kingdom in the Abyss. Maybe the players are avenging angels who decide (or are assigned) to kick some ass in the name of Goodness. Lots of possibilities.

 

[Aaron L]

Its a good idea, them being "current" big bads. I'd add to it by making them happen to pop up again and again, being toppled, coming back, and so on and so on, all the time. Make an everchanging roster of archfiends, who keep rising to power only to lose it, then eventually rise again. Heck, they could even have thousands of demonic clones of themselves running all over the place; Doombots are a great tool for any villain.

Graz'zt XCXXIV is just the current one in power!

But there is the larger part of me that wants devestating engines of fire and destruction as my demon lords that I just cant ignore.

 

[RodneyThompson]

I actually think taking this philosophy makes me like the demon lords MORE than having them be near-deities. The reason: if the other demons are nipping at their heels, that means they must be both cunning and tenacious in order to maintain control over tough competitors for that long. Sort of a survival-of-the-fittest mentality.

 

[Corinth]

This "current powers" approach makes the Abyss seem like a professional wrestling federation, especially if the known demon princes rise and fall like championship belts changing hands between a handful of wrestlers.