House Rule: Battle Queue instead of rounds

[magic_gathering2001]

In the Core rules a first level fighter makes 1 attack in about 3.25 seconds (more than three but not enough that 2x rounds up to 7) Thus he can make an attack and a move in one round but not attack twice.

At 6th level this changes to about 3. So that he can make 2 attacks in a round in which he does not move.

at level 11 an attack takes about 2 seconds enough to make three in a round without moving (It is still impossible to make a move and 2 attacks)

at 16th level an attack takes about 1.5 seconds to make an attack (in theory you could do a move and two attacks at this point)

based on this if you want to keep core balance then an attack action should follow those guidelines

a move action should cost 90/base speed to move 30 ft (multiply the speed and the result to get whole numbers)

spells should cost 3.25 seconds

Or are you allowing a full action at each interval?

That would keep standing game balance. As it stands fighter types may lose ground to caster types because fighters already gain the ability to swing their sword more often than their foes but casters do not gain this advantage.

 

[Goken100]

I also suggested that your AOO would just delay your next "tick" ... so if you normally would attack 5 "ticks" from now you would attack 7 or 8 from now instead of giving spurious bonuses.

The thing about allowing someone to continue their action after they make an attack of opportunity is the completely unrealistic nature of such a thing in the context of my current rules. All rules must balance gameplay and accuracy of simulation. The current rules mandate that actions are not completed until the end of the action time. One cannot instruct another opponent... "OK, don't move, I was just about to stab you now that I've raised my sword to the precise angle... but I've just gotta take this attack of opportunity. Don't give me that pouty face! Hey, tell ya what, I'll delay a second or two before I thrust. Doesn't that make it all better?"

The only way such a thing would be possible would be to change the rules so that its closer to the way Final Fantasy works. One makes a decision and executes the decision instantly, then spends his entire Action Time recuperating... or perhaps performing the next action, which he hasn't decided on yet! Despite the lack of realism, it does free up considerations of delaying or preventing actions once they are in progress. This would be an advantage from a simplicity standpoint, but a disadvantage from a realism and player-options-in-combat standpoint. Any opinions? Which would be better? I think I prefer the realism. I want to be able to save my damsel with quick thinking when I see that villain trying to lop off her head!

 

[Pssthpok]

Seems far too complicated for its own good. Very detailed, yes, but overly complex and it promises to bog down play at the table.

 

[Goken100]

In the Core rules a first level fighter makes 1 attack in about 3.25 seconds (more than three but not enough that 2x rounds up to 7) Thus he can make an attack and a move in one round but not attack twice.

At 6th level this changes to about 3. So that he can make 2 attacks in a round in which he does not move.

at level 11 an attack takes about 2 seconds enough to make three in a round without moving (It is still impossible to make a move and 2 attacks)

at 16th level an attack takes about 1.5 seconds to make an attack (in theory you could do a move and two attacks at this point)

based on this if you want to keep core balance then an attack action should follow those guidelines

a move action should cost 90/base speed to move 30 ft (multiply the speed and the result to get whole numbers)

spells should cost 3.25 seconds

Or are you allowing a full action at each interval?

That would keep standing game balance. As it stands fighter types may lose ground to caster types because fighters already gain the ability to swing their sword more often than their foes but casters do not gain this advantage.

I love the way you're thinking. I undertook a very similar exercise. You're forgetting one important thing: all attacks are not created equal. A level 6 fighter is not going to consider his +1 attack to be equal to his +6 attack. I therefore created a formula that weighted each attack based on how useful it is compared to the full attack bonus. That's why Action Times don't progress as fast as you suggest.

I don't believe that a first level character's actions being completed in 3.25 seconds is accurate. You're trying to force logic into a system that is built for game balance, not realism (and building for game balance is a very legitimate goal!). But in deconstructing the system, one has to analyze what the goals were in developing the system and attempt to reach them through other means.

All characters still have the ability to move and then attack. If the distance is small, its quite likely they can complete all of that within 6 seconds. And the advantage here is that characters with high base attack bonuses will be able to move and attack faster than other characters, unlike under the core rules.

Which leads into my next point. Another thing you don't realize is that by allowing the base attack bonus to modified the time to complete ALL actions, more militant characters become MASTERS OF COMBAT. They are versatile in all things, and can even get spells off more quickly if they multi-class. So worries of their losing ground to other characters are for naught. Fighters and other high BAB fellas are more dangerous than ever under these rules.

One final note: I originally designed the rules and playtested them where things were measured in tenths of seconds. This necessitated the pace of the action to progress one tenth of a second at a time. It was attrocious. I then changed it to use half-seconds only. This was much improved, pace-wise, but calculations and terminology were still quite cumbersome, and the pace could be better. Using whole seconds is the only alternative to make the system simple and fast. So while I TOTALLY understand the desire to split times up into decimals, be warned. That way lies madness!

 

[Kisanji Arael]

Well, I'm stealing this as soon as it looks to be finalized.

A thought: even though it goes against D&D standard that all spells take the same amount of time to cast, you might consider linking spell time to spell level.

 

[genshou]

Well, I'm stealing this as soon as it looks to be finalized.

A thought: even though it goes against D&D standard that all spells take the same amount of time to cast, you might consider linking spell time to spell level.

That's not something we need to bring into this edition of the game, IMO. I think spellcasters getting a little faster at completing spells isn't a problem at all. High-level mages should be casting spells faster, not slower.

 

[magic_gathering2001]

I love the way you're thinking.

Thanks I try

I undertook a very similar exercise. You're forgetting one important thing: all attacks are not created equal. A level 6 fighter is not going to consider his +1 attack to be equal to his +6 attack. I therefore created a formula that weighted each attack based on how useful it is compared to the full attack bonus. That's why Action Times don't progress as fast as you suggest.

This is true but the action times should still be more like
1-5 4s
6-15 3s
16+ 2s
with wholes only or
1-5 3.5
6-10 3
11-15 2.5
16+ 2

I don't believe that a first level character's actions being completed in 3.25 seconds is accurate. You're trying to force logic into a system that is built for game balance, not realism (and building for game balance is a very legitimate goal!). But in deconstructing the system, one has to analyze what the goals were in developing the system and attempt to reach them through other means.

I am only talking about a single attack action, in the current system a single attack action takes up the majority of a six second round but leaves time for a move action (average 3 seconds for 30 ft). This also allows two move actions in six seconds just like in the core rules.

Would you mind doing a more detailed example of a combat using movement and such? I think I'm missing something.

All characters still have the ability to move and then attack. If the distance is small, its quite likely they can complete all of that within 6 seconds. And the advantage here is that characters with high base attack bonuses will be able to move and attack faster than other characters, unlike under the core rules.

In the core rules, a 1st level fighter can move 30 ft and attack. Under your rules, assuming 2m is the same as 5ft(which it isn't but its close enough for this) it would take a first level fighter 12 seconds, 6 to move and 6 to attack. Not even an 18 level monk can do it under your system. In the time it takes a fighter to charge a wizard can get off 2 magic missiles and possible drop the fighter(not likely but still).

Which leads into my next point. Another thing you don't realize is that by allowing the base attack bonus to modified the time to complete ALL actions, more militant characters become MASTERS OF COMBAT. They are versatile in all things, and can even get spells off more quickly if they multi-class. So worries of their losing ground to other characters are for naught. Fighters and other high BAB fellas are more dangerous than ever under these rules.

Level Result advantage
1 Wizard casts magic missile twice before fighter closes fighter attacks Wizard
once
6 Fighter closes, Wizard casts lightning bolt, fighter attacks wizard casts Wizard
again fighter attacks
12 Fighter closes, Wizard casts, fighter attacks wizard casts again fighter Wizard
attacks
18 Fighter closes, Wizards casts, fighter attacks, wizards casts, faighter
attacks
When do fighters get off more attacks than wizards do spells?

One final note: I originally designed the rules and playtested them where things were measured in tenths of seconds. This necessitated the pace of the action to progress one tenth of a second at a time. It was attrocious. I then changed it to use half-seconds only. This was much improved, pace-wise, but calculations and terminology were still quite cumbersome, and the pace could be better. Using whole seconds is the only alternative to make the system simple and fast. So while I TOTALLY understand the desire to split times up into decimals, be warned. That way lies madness!

It could just be in half seconds giving you
7
6
4
3
respectively

A thought: even though it goes against D&D standard that all spells take the same amount of time to cast, you might consider linking spell time to spell level.

Just eyeballing it 10-max level spell that can be cast+ level of the spell being cast might work (it would also help with the fighters versus wizards scenario making it more like it is in the Core at low levels)

 

[Goken100]

I am only talking about a single attack action, in the current system a single attack action takes up the majority of a six second round but leaves time for a move action (average 3 seconds for 30 ft). This also allows two move actions in six seconds just like in the core rules.

Would you mind doing a more detailed example of a combat using movement and such? I think I'm missing something.

Well, you made some very good points. I've been re-crunching some numbers and running a few tests. Keep one thing in mind: the core rules are unbalanced as concerns moving-then-attacking. Level 1 characters do it just as fast and get just as many as level 50. So low level characters are relatively powerful in this, and high level characters are relatively weak.

That being said, I've still decided to make some moderate changes (updated above). For one, characters now progress slightly more rapidly in Action Times. This has the advantage of now coinciding to the exact levels in the core rules that characters receive additional attacks with the full-round attack. For another, I've changed the Jogging, Running, and Charging rules. Note that "Hustle" was changed to "Jog", cause hustle sounds lame. I think these rules are in sink with the core rules and will allow characters to be almost as mobile.

Well, I'm stealing this as soon as it looks to be finalized.

Well, there are still some issues for which I'd appreciate input from other folks. They are:

1. Is the term "Jog" the best term for moving double-time? I considered actually calling it double-time, but that's sorta cumbersome.
2. Is the gradual withdrawl rule that I just added necessar and reasonable?
3. Is an attack of opportunity with +5 to hit and +5 to damage appropriate compensation for causing the attacker to cancel the action that was in process? Alternatives?
4. Should actions be completed immediately and be followed by a recuperation time like in Final Fantasy, or should rolling and results only occur at the end of each character's action time? (Leaning toward latter option)

Thanks everyone, keep em comin!

 

[Abe.ebA]

I played a system like this back in 2e. I don't remember where I found it... possibly on the internet or in an issue of Dragon or something. I don't really remember the details, but I remember my group's conclusions.

1) The only thing that really changed was that people who had high weapon speeds got totally hosed. Normally having a mancatcher (weapon speed 10, I think it was) or similar just meant that you went at the end of the round. With this system (it used weapon speeds to determine how long it took you to attack), people with fast weapons got multiple attacks in to each one of a slow weapon speed attacker.

2) It was annoying to keep track of. Lots of adding and writing down going on.

3) It meant a lot more waiting for people to make up their minds than normal. With the current initiative system, you have from the time of your previous action until the time of your next action to figure out what you want to do. With a system like this you have to figure out your next action before your current action goes off or else do it after your action and before the DM moves on to the next time segment. Since your action might kill an enemy or your spell might fail or whatever this almost always means stopping while the person decideds their next action before you move on.

4) With several NPCs acting during a combat it gets very complicated and annoying. I dunno about you lot, but my NPCs all go off the same initiative roll. If they have different Init mods then I'll do them on different segments, but they stay the same every round. With this method you could easily end up with every enemy going on their own time segments and having to keep up with each. One or two enemies okay, but what about a fight with a dozen goblins?

Not saying it's an all-out bad idea. I really like the concept, it just didn't work well for my group and I thought I might point out some concerns. I bet if you used a computer to track this stuff it'd be a lot easier.

 

[magic_gathering2001]

You still have the problem of doubling the movement time...

and I still don't think its enough...

I propose:

A) Convert all of your numbers to half seconds, and have the action times be

BaB Half Seconds
0-5 7
6-10 6
11-15 4
16-19 3
20+ 2

It gets around the problem of wizards getting more spells than fighters do attacks but only at high levels, although you may have concerns with the maximum times

BaB Min Action Time
poor 6
fair 4
good 2

It gives the move-attack over time increase, and gives fighters a distinct advantage in actions per combat to wizards.


Attacks of opportunity:
Attacks of opportunity unlike normal attacks are executed immediately and have a recovery period(or if you prefer are executed at the character's reation time through the action)

I.E.
Bobo the bard is engaged in combat with Sir Knight. Bobos action time is 7 Sir Knights is 6
Tick 1 : Bobo starts to cast a spell at the beggining of combat.
Tick 2 : Sir knight 'jogs' to Bobo who is 3 spaces away
Tick 4 : Sir Knight is threatening bobo who is casting a spell. HE makes an immediate AoO
on Bobo for 5 damage with his longsword. Bobo sucedes on his concentration check
Tick 8 : Bobo's spell goes off, giving him a +1 bonus on attack and damage. Bobo Starts an
attack
Tick 10: Sir Knight starts an attack.
Tick 15: Bobo's attack goes off wounding Sir Knight
Tick 16: Sir Knights attack further wounds Bobo
Tick 22: Both Critically hit eachother and die a bloody death.

OR

Bobo the bard is engaged in combat with Sir Knight. Bobos action time is 7 Sir Knights is 6
Tick 1 : Bobo starts to cast a spell at the beggining of combat.
Tick 2 : Sir knight 'jogs' to Bobo who is 3 spaces away
Tick 4 : Sir Knight is threatening bobo who is casting a spell. HE starts an AoO
on Bobo for 5 damage with his longsword. Bobo sucedes on his concentration check
Tick 6: Sir Knight's AoO strikes Bobo for 5 damage with his longsword. Bobo sucedes on
his concentration check
Tick 8 : Bobo's spell goes off, giving him a +1 bonus on attack and damage. Bobo Starts an
attack
Tick 10: Sir Knight starts an attack.
Tick 15: Bobo's attack goes off wounding Sir Knight
Tick 16: Sir Knights attack further wounds Bobo
Tick 22: Both Critically hit eachother and die a bloody death.




Concerns:
Demons/Dragons that have really high BaB and spell like abilities. Its not pretty any way you lok at it.

Prestige Classes like the eldritch knight that provid full spellcasting and full BaB (thats what the 20th BaB drop is for)