House Rule - level bonus added to damage?

[Mercurius]

Good replies all around, thank you. The two main reasons I'm thinking about doing this are:

1) "Realism". I like the idea of higher level characters doing the same things more effectively than lower levels, and not just the miniscule difference in Ability score bonuses. Again, the question: Shouldn't a 20th level wizard's magic missile--unmodified by anything--be markedly more powerful than a 1st level wizard's?

2) Speeding up combat. I didn't mention this before, but I like the idea of speeding up combat a bit. We've only played two sessions, but I've found combat a tad on the long side...a couple times I used the old DM Fiat and speeded up an encounter by dropping monster HP (but this also had to do with several PCs being on the verge of death!).

Now I tend to like minimal house rules, because rules systems are kind of like pick-up sticks: You mess with one stick and you move three others. This can be especially glaring when players try to exploit rules through min-maxing or whatever. But I have always tweaked whatever rule system I've used, and I imagine that once I learn 4ed better I'll start tweaking it. But what I want to avoid is what would seemingly happen if I added this house rule: feats and such would be less desirable than simply ability score gain, and the "specialness" of encounter and daily powers would be less striking.

I could do +1 HP at every four levels, so +1 at 4th, +2 at 8th, +3 at 12th, +4 at 16th, +5 at 20th, +6 at 24th and +7 at 28th. But there is something awkward about that; any house rules I employ should have to be relatively "built in"--like simply saying that the half-level bonus to attacks also applies to damage, rather than the less aesthetically pleasing "quarter level bonus applies to damage."

On the other hand, look at Jedrious's example of the 30th level rogue. A piercing strike range of 16-22 HP for a 30th level character seems kind of weak; I mean, we're talking about a near-immortal here.

Another option would be to add in some kind of extra critical capacity...
H

 

[Tale]

1) "Realism". I like the idea of higher level characters doing the same things more effectively than lower levels, and not just the miniscule difference in Ability score bonuses. Again, the question: Shouldn't a 20th level wizard's magic missile--unmodified by anything--be markedly more powerful than a 1st level wizard's?

Not really and you're not really presenting any rational for "why." It's a magical bolt. Any magical bolt should be just like any other magical bolt made the exact same way.

A bullet from a experienced cop isn't distinctly more damaging than a bullet from a 11 year old who found his dad's pistol. It'll just be more accurate.

 

[jedrious]

On the other hand, look at Jedrious's example of the 30th level rogue. A piercing strike range of 16-22 HP for a 30th level character seems kind of weak; I mean, we're talking about a near-immortal here.

my example doesn't include things like sneak attack which would up the damage to 21-52 but would also have altered the disparity example (disproportionately in my favor I might add) which is approximately 1/11th to 1/5th of the hp of the highest level non-elite, non-solo monster in the MM (Efreet Karadjin) or 1/10th to 1/4th of the other non-elite, non-solo of that level (Sorrowsworn Deathlord)
which considering those monsters are near immortals themselves........

 

[aurance]

On the other hand, look at Jedrious's example of the 30th level rogue. A piercing strike range of 16-22 HP for a 30th level character seems kind of weak; I mean, we're talking about a near-immortal here.

The trick is to know where to look for damage modifiers. Here's a new metric for the level 30 rogue, with some other likely bonuses thrown in:

2d4 + 6(enhancement) + 8 (26 dex) + sneak attack [5d8+7 (24 str)] + 3 (weapon focus) + 6 (bracers) + 12 (reckless weapon) = range of 37-43 on normal hits, 49-90 on sneak attacks.

 

[ValhallaGH]

1) "Realism". I like the idea of higher level characters doing the same things more effectively than lower levels, and not just the miniscule difference in Ability score bonuses. Again, the question: Shouldn't a 20th level wizard's magic missile--unmodified by anything--be markedly more powerful than a 1st level wizard's?

No, not really. It's a magic missile, it's a very simple, generic damage spell. Now, at 21st level, it's doing an additional 2d4, but that's because he's epic.

2) Speeding up combat. I didn't mention this before, but I like the idea of speeding up combat a bit. We've only played two sessions, but I've found combat a tad on the long side...a couple times I used the old DM Fiat and speeded up an encounter by dropping monster HP (but this also had to do with several PCs being on the verge of death!).

Then give it to PCs and to no one else. This will cause a rapid rise in PC damage without having to do a lot of character fiddling to get there. You'll make Encounters and Dailies less special, and some players won't feel as large a need to spread their stat increases around, but it will shorten fights a lot (and increase PC survival, incidentally).

Now I tend to like minimal house rules, because rules systems are kind of like pick-up sticks: You mess with one stick and you move three others.

Solid policy.

On the other hand, look at Jedrious's example of the 30th level rogue. A piercing strike range of 16-22 HP for a 30th level character seems kind of weak; I mean, we're talking about a near-immortal here.

Right. He can one-shot normal people with his weakest attack. His least effort chops off about 19 hp from anything. And that's when he's using bad tactics.
That's one scary dude.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Your change will have a very skewed effect. Certain classes will barely benefit from it (2 out of the three strikers), while the damage output of others will potentially be tripled (fighters, rangers).

That pretty much makes it an awful rule.

Incidentally, at wills already do extra damage for being 21st level and above.

If you really want to grant bonus damage for level, then the most fair way to do it is either per die or a flat multiplier. Either will be complicated.

You're probably better off just realising that the quantity of daily and encounter powers that high level character has makes a big difference to how much damage they can cause vs a low level character.

Oh, finally note that strikers (the guys who are supposed to be causing single target damage) already get a bonus that increases per tier.

 

[Wakrob]

My DM has adopted the +1/2 lvl damage rule for about 2 months now. I play a rogue. I keep arguing that it hurts strikers because it narrows the % margin between my striker damage and the others. I have been asking for Strikers to get +lvl damage.
I was hoping someone here might agree with me for some unbias support to my cause.
My average damage with sneak attack combared our Halfling Fighter using a handaxe was 184%, now the new rule brings it down to 162%. A bigger fighter could easily have a bigger weapon than d6 but this Halfling also uses a odd feat from the Dragon gladiator article that lets him make a basic ranged attack after a Cleave (some fighting style) so that he actually averages more damage than me if they both hit.

Anyone agree it would be more fair to give Strikers +lvl to other classes +1/2 lvl?

Thanks
Wak

Your change will have a very skewed effect. Certain classes will barely benefit from it (2 out of the three strikers), while the damage output of others will potentially be tripled (fighters, rangers).

That pretty much makes it an awful rule.

Incidentally, at wills already do extra damage for being 21st level and above.

If you really want to grant bonus damage for level, then the most fair way to do it is either per die or a flat multiplier. Either will be complicated.

You're probably better off just realising that the quantity of daily and encounter powers that high level character has makes a big difference to how much damage they can cause vs a low level character.

Oh, finally note that strikers (the guys who are supposed to be causing single target damage) already get a bonus that increases per tier.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I have not read every post in this thread but I say this:
I would neither grant 1/2 lvl to dmg nor lvl to dmg.

If I look at the CharOp boards there are chars that can easily dish out several hundreds of damage in a nova turn. And that is a rather conservative number.

There is no need to increase damage output by such a house rule, especially since AV and MP hit the shelves.

And with more books being released such a rule becomes more and more superfluous. Unless you want your Twin Strike using melee ranger to kill a monster of its level with about one use of Twin Strike.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Good replies all around, thank you. The two main reasons I'm thinking about doing this are:

1) "Realism". I like the idea of higher level characters doing the same things more effectively than lower levels, and not just the miniscule difference in Ability score bonuses. Again, the question: Shouldn't a 20th level wizard's magic missile--unmodified by anything--be markedly more powerful than a 1st level wizard's?

It is, because it hits things much more often than a first level wizard will.
Also it has significantly more chance of having damage boosted by feats and other effects.
You can't really judge powers without looking at gear.

2) Speeding up combat. I didn't mention this before, but I like the idea of speeding up combat a bit. We've only played two sessions, but I've found combat a tad on the long side...a couple times I used the old DM Fiat and speeded up an encounter by dropping monster HP (but this also had to do with several PCs being on the verge of death!).

If you've only played 2 sessions I'd hold back on tinkering with things because of speed.
The players are just getting used to the system and 4th ed requires a fair bit more teamwork than earlier versions of D&D to set things up and take advantage of what other people do.

There's also the question of character builds and team composition for effectiveness.

Also if you've started at first level the suggested change won't have an impact for a fair while at which point people have more options in terms of encounter and daily powers.

Now I tend to like minimal house rules, because rules systems are kind of like pick-up sticks: You mess with one stick and you move three others. This can be especially glaring when players try to exploit rules through min-maxing or whatever. But I have always tweaked whatever rule system I've used, and I imagine that once I learn 4ed better I'll start tweaking it. But what I want to avoid is what would seemingly happen if I added this house rule: feats and such would be less desirable than simply ability score gain, and the "specialness" of encounter and daily powers would be less striking.

I could do +1 HP at every four levels, so +1 at 4th, +2 at 8th, +3 at 12th, +4 at 16th, +5 at 20th, +6 at 24th and +7 at 28th. But there is something awkward about that; any house rules I employ should have to be relatively "built in"--like simply saying that the half-level bonus to attacks also applies to damage, rather than the less aesthetically pleasing "quarter level bonus applies to damage."

On the other hand, look at Jedrious's example of the 30th level rogue. A piercing strike range of 16-22 HP for a 30th level character seems kind of weak; I mean, we're talking about a near-immortal here.

Another option would be to add in some kind of extra critical capacity...
H

The example leaves a lot of things out.
also a high level character won't be using at wills as often as a low level character.

One thing to be careful of with tinkering like this is that extra damage or extra criticals will be close to giving the ranger twice the impact as other striker classes and controllers will get the impact on everyone they hit with their area powers.
Also note that things like Daggermaster will either get critical benefits 3 times as often or if you let other people crit more often (say 19-20) you do away with a fait bit of the benefit of being a daggermaster.

 

[Abisashi]

Adding level/2 to damage will have lots of side effects, as others have noted. Here are some other ways you could speed up combat:

Give everyone an extra encounter power; for a small boost, have it be of the same level as their lowest-level encounter power; for a big jump, have it be the same as their highest. You could also give everyone an extra daily.

You could also give players an action point every encounter (instead of 1/milestone), and once per day + once per milestone they can spend two action points per encounter (so you don't render bonus action points from other sources useless).

Once per combat, as a free action when they hit an opponent, a player can add their level to the damage dealt to one target hit by the attack, or 1 damage/tier to every enemy hit by that attack.

Those will mess up your game less, and I also think they will be more exciting than just a flat bonus.