D&D 5E House Rule to Make Upcasting More Attractive

[DND_Reborn]

And honestly, I am very surprised to hear other groups see so much upcasting... it happens maybe once every 3-4 sessions in our games.

 

[Maxperson]

And honestly, I am very surprised to hear other groups see so much upcasting... it happens maybe once every 3-4 sessions in our games.

I see it about once every two sessions, but mostly by a player who doesn't bother to figure out math and just does what is fun. I see it about once every 4-5 sessions from the other players.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

We very rarely upcast current and when someone tries it, it never seems worth it.

And honestly, I am very surprised to hear other groups see so much upcasting... it happens maybe once every 3-4 sessions in our games.

Does this differ by level of play?

In our group the party is 5th level, and we have very slow leveling so we've played extensively at each of those levels (I've run theme shorter adventures at various other levels, but I my extended experience so far is concentrated in this party). We have a bard, and a custom class with wizard spellcasting. The only upcastable spells he has are cure wounds and healing word. He probably upcasts in a fight every 3 or so sessions, but out of combat he upcasts cure wounds regularly. The wizard upcasts thunderwave about once every 4 or 5 sessions, and would likely do the same with magic missile, except that he rarely prepares the latter for lack of enough slots to prepare everything he wants. There aren't many other things on his list worth upcasting.

The bard grumbles about it because he prefers 3e and can't stand that spells don't auto-scale by caster level, and that the healing spells in particular don't scale as well as they did in 3e. The wizard likes 5e and understands how this is all designed to work (as others have said--you usually only upcast a spell because you have no better use for that slot--the benefit is pure freebie--it could have been designed to not scale at all in higher slots!)

 

[DND_Reborn]

Does this differ by level of play?

Nope. It is pretty consistent. I might have been generous, honestly, when I even estimated once in 3-4 sessions--it is probably much less.

The only upcastable spells he has are cure wounds and healing word. He probably upcasts in a fight every 3 or so sessions, but out of combat he upcasts cure wounds regularly.

Why would you ever do that? It is nerfing his healing when he does. We only upcast healing spells during combat when a faster blast of healing is needed to survive the fight. Outside, each upcasted level is denying his spellcasting modifier bonus to the amount healed.

There aren't many other things on his list worth upcasting.

Is that because upcasting typically isn't worth it?

I expect upcasting should not be good enough to want to do all the time, but man, IMO for dice spells it just sucks...

The wizard likes 5e and understands how this is all designed to work (as others have said--you usually only upcast a spell because you have no better use for that slot--the benefit is pure freebie--it could have been designed to not scale at all in higher slots!)

IME IF anything like that occurs, 9 times out of 10 it is because of poor spell selection than lack of use or opportunity. shrug

Now, you bring up an interesting topic: scaling. Your save-versus spells scale due to your proficiency bonus and ability modifier increasing, but many dice-based spells don't unless you upcast them (unless they also happen to be save-versus, e.g. fireball).

I'll return to the example of Command. It requires a Wisdom save. At level 1, a typical save DC is 12-13, but level 13 and higher it is likely DC 18+. Many creatures will gain saves at higher levels, but quite a lot don't still! So, the spell improves over all as you level up. Throw in that upcasting it allows you an additional target per spell level, and it is even better!

Compare it to Cure Wounds or Sleep. Neither really scale as you level (ok, your spellcasting mod will likely be a couple points higher, but that's it). So, at 13+ level you are still doing d8+mod and 5d8, respectively. You basically have to upcast them to keep them at all effective later on.

Personally, I see that as a problem. At least with this house-rule I'm suggesting it makes upcasting such spells viable and a decent choice if you want to. shrug

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Why would you ever do that? It is nerfing his healing when he does. We only upcast healing spells during combat when a faster blast of healing is needed to survive the fight. Outside, each upcasted level is denying his spellcasting modifier bonus to the amount healed.

In our particular group we use the DMG resting variant where you don't regain hit points on a long rest, only HD, so any spells slots left over at the end of the day usually get turned into healing. I expect even with standard long rest rules it would happen (just not as often) when there is a high likelihood of a fight later in the day and the party is low on HD. After burning the 1st-level slots, all you have left is higher level slots.

 

[clearstream]

Why would you ever do that? It is nerfing his healing when he does. We only upcast healing spells during combat when a faster blast of healing is needed to survive the fight. Outside, each upcasted level is denying his spellcasting modifier bonus to the amount healed.

One example of when it makes sense out of combat is when a character has only a higher level slot left, and is about to rest. In combat, I see my players do as you say, and thinking about that I feel like we need to count the intrinsic efficiency. What I mean is, how do we arrive at the fair value of an upcast? Say it is 1d8+mod for an L1 slot. What is the fair value for an L2 slot?

The parts of the value are a) the numerical gain in effect, b) the discount on the action cost (one fewer actions used), and c) the volatility or risk of a better or worse outcome. If two actions are worth 1d8+mod + 1d8+mod then fairly an upcast must be worth less than that.

• 2d8+mod+mod at the played levels is probably about 10-24 at a cost of two actions.
• Under your rule, we get 13-20 at the cost of one action.
• There is not much between these, other than the cost of the extra action.

Under my argument, the volatility - risk of a worse result - must pay for the gain of the action + the loss of counting your mod twice. I think you are observing that it feels like it does not: that the bottom of the range is not where it should be to feel fair. I would count the action as worth quite a bit more than your characters would end up paying for it.

 

[Blue]

And honestly, I am very surprised to hear other groups see so much upcasting... it happens maybe once every 3-4 sessions in our games.

I think this is by table and by level. With our 11th level group, our order cleric and our divine sorcerer upcast 2-3 times in a big encounters and less in other encounters but still things like Bless to get more of the party, while our spore druid never upcasts. Upcasting is more likely to get more targets, though Spirit Guardians or Spiritual Weapon for more ongoing damage isn't uncommon. Or if there's a lot of foes in the AoE an upcast Fireball or once Wall of Light will be seen. Our Avernus group went 1-13, and we saw upcasts regularly by end of the campaign, but nothing until about 5th and very little until about 7th. A 4th level group I'm running the only upcasts we see is healing.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Again, I see that a problem with DBF, not upcasting Fireball. I mean, Fireball at 7th level does the same 12d6 as DBF. The opportunity to "delay" it isn't worth learning an extra spell at 7th level (there are better spells to learn IMO) to increase the damage.

Yeah DBF is underwhelming. It’s a 7th level spell. I’m not wasting a spell on that.

In fairness, my concern is that it's too much of a boost, as others have pointed out. But, it does need something IMO...

I’m not sure they’re even right, since it’s just “you never roll poorly when upcasting”, but if you do agree with them, consider either using average damage (or high/rounded up average damage).

 

[delph]

We finally had our first live game of the year and a player upcast healing word at level 2, rolling just a 1 and 2 for a total of 5 hp of healing. In a prior battle, the same spell at level 1 healed 6 hp when he rolled a 4. He commented on what a let down upcasting was in 5E, so we discussed it and came up with an idea for a new house rule:

When you upcast a spell that heals or does damage (or affects any die roll for effect),
you add a maximum for the additional die results for each additional level.

Examples:

• You upcast Healing Word to level 2. Instead of 2d4+Wis mod, you roll 1d4+4+Wis Mod.
• You upcast Sleep to level 3. Instead of 9d8, you roll 5d8+32.
• You upcast Cure Wounds at level 4. Instead of 4d8+Wis mod, you roll 1d8+24+Wis Mod.
• You upcast Fireball to level 5. Instead of 10d6, you roll 8d6+12.

Certain spells, such as Command, which affect additional targets, in essence double, triple, etc. their effectiveness which each level (or so) added. So, this allows dice-based spells a better increase in effectiveness as well.

I think this is a decent idea, but as always am interested in any feedback. So, thoughts or suggestions?

what about use "level up HP average" so when is 1d8 then add 5, when is 1d6 then 4,.... ad highest number is too much for me.

And for save spells I welcome something like every 1 (or two) spellslots above add +1 to DC spellsave.

 

[Horwath]

I give my players these choices:" either roll or take the average on any number of dice."
What I see, is that many player roll half the dice and take the average on the other half.

rolling 3 or 4 dice and make the rest even number of dice as average is a nice middle ground.

8d6 would go to 4d6+14 and 9d6 would be 3d6+21