D&D 5E House Rule to Make Upcasting More Attractive

[dave2008]

A 7th-level fireball would not do an average of 60 damage, it would be 52 (nearly 10 points less than the 61.5 average of finger of death).

A fireball is normally 28 average (8d6), adding +6 per upcast level (+24 for upcasting 4 levels) would be 52 damage.

OK. I misunderstood. I thought you were saying max the base damage so a 7th lvl fireball would be 48 (8x6) + 14 (4d6) = 62

Not as bad as I thought, but it is still something to consider. As assumed 104 damage with your fireball is a lot more than 61.5 with finger of death. The better option is to look at two similar spells.

Delayed blast fireball: avg damage 42
your fireball at 7th: avg. damage 52.

You would have to hold a delayed blast fireball for 3 turns to get the same effect of standard fireball at 7th.

I'm not saying it is a deal breaker, just that it is an issue.

 

[dave2008]

But, that is a big point of this rule, using your 7th-level slot to upcast would now be a good option. FWIW, without the house-rule, a 7th-level fireball (12d6) would average 42 (tempting), but compared to other 7th-level spells not quite as attractive as 52 obviously.

Oops, just finished reading where you covered my point. My worry is that now upcasting will be the only option for these type of spells. Now you've gone the opposite direction

 

[Helldritch]

When upcasting or all the time?

Like @clearstream's suggestion--it protects against a low result, but don't make upcasting really much more appealing IMO. shrug

All the time. Up casting or not. Only hit rolls must actually be ... rolled.
This speed up play in many ways as more and more of my players are now using average damage. Even to the point that unless a players tells me in advance that he/she is going to roll, I know their average damage by heart and scrape off the damage they should do immediately.

What I have notice, is also the fact that the players tend to roll on criticals on the hope of a big number, or when a foe is close to dying and again, hope for a big enough number to down the foe faster.

Again, when faced with many dice, a lot are simply rolling half the dice and take the average for the rest.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Oops, just finished reading where you covered my point. My worry is that now upcasting will be the only option for these type of spells. Now you've gone the opposite direction

I'll have to look at the numbers today. Maybe it will be too much of a shift in the other direction?

Anyway, let's compare to DBF. IME even at higher levels, no one uses DBF because it is underwhelming for a 7th level spell. BDF base damage (12d6) is the same as an upcast Fireball (8d6+4d6)--which is disappointing IMO. Sure, you "hold" it for extra damage, but it is never worth it IME.

All the time. Up casting or not. Only hit rolls must actually be ... rolled.
This speed up play in many ways as more and more of my players are now using average damage. Even to the point that unless a players tells me in advance that he/she is going to roll, I know their average damage by heart and scrape off the damage they should do immediately.

What I have notice, is also the fact that the players tend to roll on criticals on the hope of a big number, or when a foe is close to dying and again, hope for a big enough number to down the foe faster.

Again, when faced with many dice, a lot are simply rolling half the dice and take the average for the rest.

We've done average damage (for the whole spell) as an option for a while now (it is much faster! ), but I sort of like the idea of being able to split them (roll some, average some).

 

[DND_Reborn]

FWIW, compare Cure Wounds as 6th-level slot (d8+40+WIS mod) vs. Heal (70 hp, plus blindness, deafness, & disease curing). Obviously, Heal is still a much better option than upcasting Cure Wounds upcasted.

I think certain spells, such as BDF, are underwhelming, is more the issue than the house-rule when making these comparisons.

 

[dave2008]

I'll have to look at the numbers today. Maybe it will be too much of a shift in the other direction?

Anyway, let's compare to DBF. IME even at higher levels, no one uses DBF because it is underwhelming for a 7th level spell. BDF base damage (12d6) is the same as an upcast Fireball (8d6+4d6)--which is disappointing IMO. Sure, you "hold" it for extra damage, but it is never worth it IME.

I guess I disagree. 12d6 is what a 7th level AoE spell is supposed to do. So that fact that upcasting fireball does the same makes sense to me. That would be upcasting working as intended, It seems your real issue is the fickle nature of dice. Why not use multiples. So 12d6 becomes 12x6. A lot higher odds of the extremes, but if low rolls are a fear, you could also say you get to any roll of 1 becomes a 2 or something.

However, I have thought of a 2nd issue. What are you doing to compensate martials for the boost in damage / effect casters are getting? the fact that a 7th level spell goes from 42 to 52 avg damage (x2 really) is quite a bost. Will you max damage a fighters first attack or something?

 

[BookTenTiger]

This house rule would definitely make upcasting more attractive!

I see a lot of upcasting in both the game I play in and the game I run, so it wouldn't be too necessary for me. But one way to encourage upcasting may be to grant a bonus outside of damage. This may be silly and way too complicated, but it could be something like:

Abjuration: +1 AC/ level difference until start of next turn.
Evocation: next damage spell gets +1 / level difference elemental damage
Divination: +1 / level difference to Perception checks until the start of your next turn

Etc.

Just another idea!

 

[aco175]

I find that my players up-cast mostly healing with few other spells used that way. Not sure if others find this as well.

What about people that specialize in one school. Would a life cleric be able to cast healing spells better than normal clerics, or a fire mage be able to cast fireball for more damage? I know that they have some in their base rules for the class, but adding what the OP was talking about may boost the feel of certain types of classes. It may also just make those classes you favor though. i.e., if there are no mid-level acid spells or low-level lightning spells- there will be nobody specializing in that.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I guess I disagree. 12d6 is what a 7th level AoE spell is supposed to do. So that fact that upcasting fireball does the same makes sense to me. That would be upcasting working as intended, It seems your real issue is the fickle nature of dice. Why not use multiples. So 12d6 becomes 12x6. A lot higher odds of the extremes, but if low rolls are a fear, you could also say you get to any roll of 1 becomes a 2 or something.

That's fine. I have no issues with disagreement.

However, I have thought of a 2nd issue. What are you doing to compensate martials for the boost in damage / effect casters are getting? the fact that a 7th level spell goes from 42 to 52 avg damage (x2 really) is quite a bost. Will you max damage a fighters first attack or something?

Nothing, they aren't sacrificing anything (a more powerful slot) to augment something weaker (a lower level spell).

I suppose the only equivalent would be for a fighter with extra attack to foregoing his addition attack to automatically deal base die damage. Something like instead of getting d8+4 making two attacks, you make one attack and if it hits you do d8+8+4. shrug

 

[Blue]

Healing Word is intentionally a weaker heal, because of all the advantages it has - bonus action to cast and range. Basing a generalized decision on it is misleading. If they want to heal more, pick Cure Wounds. It is near twice as much average per die and upcasts just fine.

It's like saying cantrip scaling is too weak when the only cantrip you cast is Vicious Mockery.