Houseruling classes

[Garthanos]

I take ju-jutsu classes, and the tactics factor there is just a blast. Usually you can't pull same move on the same opponent twice. But: you can pull it on the other opponent who didn't see you doing this, or when you feint the opponent into thinking you're making a different move, or in different combat position (which you probably provoked specifically for that purpose). The rule "you get cumulative -4 when attempting the same exploit on the same opponent" I can work with, but "you can do this once per combat, no matter what's the situation" is artificial to me.

I like the severely penalized idea for advanced trickery against the same opponent twice even if IRL there is subtle feints or deception preceding about 1 in 5 moves, 1 in 5 times they those deceptions get ignored 1 in 5 times they get figured out etc I think of it as "built in to the d20 itself."

In Karate I pulled a move out of my hat that mostly annoyed the heck out of people, my reflexes were just good enough that nobody there could prevent it with any reliability(im sure the teacher could have)... basically I did a quick short kick at a lead shin at the point when they went on the offensive, throwing them off balance if I followed through and exploited that state it would have been cool.. In D&D that is just fighting defensively
(all out defense) with light armor.

There is a house rule mentioned periodically that gives the same kind of refresh to players that is given to monsters.. if its good for the goose its good for the gander concept. On a critical hit with a move I would make it an automatic refresh because your adversary obviously didnt see what hit them.. if you want to make the refresh more interesting since its a PC we could make it a normal d20 against your adversaries wisdom or intelligence to see if that normally encounter based exploit is repeatable.

Just because a character in a movie isn't repeating the same deception doesn't mean they arent repeating a move that is in the game labeled the same.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I understand your reaction to 4e. I read through the PHB the first time and the endless lists of 400 powers pretty much put me to sleep. Not that there aren't plenty of interesting ones, but with something like 400+ powers in the one book they do start to seem like a lot of 'more of the same' after a while. I guess if I had been in charge of designing 4e it would have probably been a bit different, but the 4e we have is the 4e we have and after having played it for 6 months I find that some of the things, like the large numbers of powers, aren't so much of an issue. Other things which were not apparent at all going through the rules are larger factors though.

Its like this: 4e's powers are all in the details. Its true that a lot of them aren't VERY different from one another, but you can think of them as each being basically a slight variation on what the character does (this is less true of spell casters). If the fighter uses 'Brute Strike' instead of 'Reaping Strike' it is just basically an attack with his weapon, he just put a bunch of muscle behind that one swing instead of maybe a bit more clever swordplay that round. So if you loose the mindset that each individual power is a central facet of the character and just accept them as the bag of little tricks that PC happens to use then the whole issue kind of goes away. Believe me, there is plenty of flavor in each class and build. They are all distinct enough that you won't have a problem identifying with the character.

As far as tweaking things goes though, that is a pretty tough thing to do at the level of reworking you're talking about. The 4e powers are a pretty intricately balanced set of interlocking abilities. No one power is a huge big deal by itself, but once you start changing them around you run hard into a lot of balance issues and things that I think you'll find are not going to be easy to work out.

All that said I think where you may actually find 4e DOES give you problems is in two areas.

1 is that if the PCs aren't gung ho to figure out the best possible ways to fit their characters together to form a seamless whole it is REALLY hard for them to survive and beat the monsters in combat. "beer and pretzels" level tactics just don't cut it in 4e. Characters don't have the option to just roll out their high level spells if they happen make a dumb mistake and 'fix it'. Despite all the surges and loads of hit points etc 4e combat is really quite a bit deadlier in overall effect than it was in 1e/2e.

2 In order to succeed in combat the players REALLY need to be willing to dig into their characters and make sure they build them so they fight at near maximum ability. There isn't a lot of leeway for suboptimal PCs. There isn't a lot of leeway for suboptimal tactics either. A group of players that aren't really into tactics and tweaking their players is going to find combats to be tough or even downright unwinnable.

IMHO this is really the one great failing of 4e. It caters to people who like to dig into the rules and figure out tactics. Those players that are only interested in combat as a part of overall role play may find themselves unable to cope with it or just bored by it. I think the result is that while 4e has good rules systems and those rules systems are fine for dealing with non combat situations that the game still ends up pushing fights to center stage, even if they are rare in a given game, just because you really HAVE to be a master of that part of the game. I think the result is kind of a 'love it or hate it' situation where some players are thrilled by 4e and others are just left cold by it.

 

[Garthanos]

There is a house rule mentioned periodically that gives the same kind of refresh to players that is given to monsters.. if its good for the goose its good for the gander concept. On a critical hit with a move I would make it an automatic refresh because your adversary obviously didnt see what hit them.. if you want to make the refresh more interesting since its a PC we could make it a normal d20 against your adversaries wisdom or intelligence to see if that normally encounter based exploit is repeatable.

Extending this idea a little further you might make the does it refresh or not based on how well the roll succeeds, in other words if you beat the roll by a given number (6 or something) the ability can be used again this combat, if not your trick has been revealed and you may have to wait till it isn't so fresh in everyone's mind, a critical failure and you may have lost confidence in that moves usefulness ... ok this is D&D no critical failure . ;-). I have no clue what the probabilities of such a rule would do...

 

[Katemare]

Extending this idea a little further you might make the does it refresh or not based on how well the roll succeeds, in other words if you beat the roll by a given number (6 or something) the ability can be used again this combat, if not your trick has been revealed and you may have to wait till it isn't so fresh in everyone's mind, a critical failure and you may have lost confidence in that moves usefulness ... ok this is D&D no critical failure . ;-). I have no clue what the probabilities of such a rule would do...

Wow! That's such an elegant, natural idea! You've solved one of major problems. Thanks.

 

[Katemare]

My best advice is to never attempt something like this alone and preferably don't attempt it on a message board. Instead get together with the people who will actually be playing in the game and work it out with them face-to-face.

Well, the RPG community in my city is tiny, and I'm moving soon anyway. And they actually like mindless repeative grindspace. It's good that I don't judge 4E by my experience with them :\

So, it's mostly theoretic. Although to say he truth, if fail to do something with class powers (or to find an interesting third party class), I'll probably have to give up 4E.

 

[Katemare]

So, I took appemts at 1-st level gnoll with this concept. Here's the result (please, help me to estimate the balance):

At-wills (what does he do for life?)

• Ferocious Strike (reflavored fighter's Reaping Strike)
• Mad Bite: non-weapon, Str vs. AC, provokes AoO, 2d6+Str dmg.

I asked myself: why does the gnoll bite? Because he's mad, because he doesn't care and because he likes to taste blood of his enemies. AoO represents recklessness and, I hope, is adequate trade-off for increased damage.

Encounter (what are his signature moves?):

• Lockjaw: non-weapon, Str vs. Ref, provokes AoO, 2d6+Str dmg and the target is grabbed; allies have Combat Advantage against the target as long as its grabbed. Recharge on high success (5+ points better result than defence).

Gnolls are supposed to be team players, and the hyena entry (this gnolls is more hyenish) states the same. So, Lockjaw is the Mad Bite with additional team effect.

Daily (what requires all his day energy to perform?):

• Frenzy: Str vs. AC, hits adjacent enemies, 3W+Str dmg; the gnoll is at -2 AC until end of encounter.

The damage is evaluated from rogue's Blinding Barrage, ranger's Split the Tree and fighter's Comeback Strike. Again, I hope that barbarian-style -2 AC is adequate trade-off for high damage.

 

[Garthanos]

Wow! That's such an elegant, natural idea! You've solved one of major problems. Thanks.

This should apply to all Encounter powers mages included
Here is some flavor for the mages refresh.
Spells usually involve components who's use frequently fouls them
this occurs unless the mage works the spell especially well. The fouled
components can ofcourse usually be purified after the fact.

 

[Garthanos]

So, I took appemts at 1-st level gnoll with this concept.

At-wills (what does he do for life?)

• Mad Bite: non-weapon, Str vs. AC, provokes AoO, 2d6+Str dmg.

I asked myself: why does the gnoll bite? Because he's mad, because he doesn't care and because he likes to taste blood of his enemies. AoO represents recklessness and, I hope, is adequate trade-off for increased damage. .

I love the idea of playing a Gnoll very cool PC race / you are wanting a custom class for one right? I think the barbarian with a little reskinning is what you could use for your Gnoll Marauder Class.

I dont know for sure about mixing in Defender style attacks in a Striker (A reflavored fighter's Reaping Strike is a reliable barrage of focused attacks), but they mix in striker elements in some defender classes so thats not so bad.

The barbarian has a howling strike that deals [w] + d6 + Str and does not provoke anything you can picture the Gnoll blocking the enemies attacks with his spear or fending them off and using his long jaws and 7 foot reach to snatch a bite [2d6] + Str is fine, if you like the implications of being a bit vulnerable I would make it "If not holding a weapon" you grant your enemies combat advantage for the next turn. Sort of a penalty for the advantage of being able to use it when you don't have a weapon in hand.

Have you looked at the Race in the Dragon Magazine or Better yet downloaded the freebie version of Character builder.
D&D Character Builder

Im not sure I like the races +2 Con with +2 Dex... the dex just doesnt fit the way I see the Gnolls 7' tall say strength! but maybe it connects with giving them the 7 movement rate.)

The barbarians Rageblood Vigor gives a Swift Charge Ability and when your opponent is reduced to zero hp you get a boost of temporary hit points.

The other option if you would prefer a more defendery type is the battlerager... I am way too fond of the battlerager (from Martial Powers its a figher build that focus's on temporary hitpoints and even few attacks which inspire fear)

Anyway there is some first thoughts.

 

[Katemare]

I love the idea of playing a Gnoll very cool PC race / you are wanting a custom class for one right? I think the barbarian with a little reskinning is what you could use for your Gnoll Marauder Class.

Yeah, thought of that too, but I don't have PHB2 at hand (is it out already?). Don't have DDI subscription either, only PHB that I loaned from fellow DM. If I can't go with just core three, then the ratio of fun/price is too low for me. Had to leave WoW for the same reason :\ a TRPG shouldn't require constant flow of cash to work, anyway.

The barbarian has a howling strike that deals [w] + d6 + Str and does not provoke anything you can picture the Gnoll blocking the enemies attacks with his spear or fending them off and using his long jaws and 7 foot reach to snatch a bite [2d6] + Str is fine, if you like the implications of being a bit vulnerable I would make it "If not holding a weapon" you grant your enemies combat advantage for the next turn. Sort of a penalty for the advantage of being able to use it when you don't have a weapon in hand.

There is an at-will power that deals even more than Mad Bite, with no trade-off? Because barbarian is all about dealing damage or it's the powercreep?

It seems like you can't evaluate the game balance from the core books... So. I wonder if a sourcebook about creating custom powers/classes is valid by GSL %) I should hope for it.

 

[Garthanos]

Yeah, thought of that too, but I don't have PHB2 at hand (is it out already?). Don't have DDI subscription either, only PHB that I loaned from fellow DM.

cant play an entirely new version of a game based on one borrowed book ;-), all that gives is a taste... to see if you are interested.

The Barbarian is a Striker..(and strikers are about doing damage). like a ranger but lacking the perpetually usable hunters quarry (which every turn gives the ranger from the core book a +d6 on one of your attacks against one opponent), hunters quarry is versatile and enhances other attack powers including encounters and dailies.
You can't analyse a power in isolation.

The free version of the Character Builder from the DDI web site, without subscription gives enough information about the Gnoll and the also intriguing Minotaur, to play it and information about 3 levels worth of Barbarian and Druid and Invoker to entice... same with Swordmage which is also yummy.
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