How a DM can counter cheesy PC tactics w/o using cheesy DM tactics.

[Nail]

And if Blindsight was a 5th level spell, the earliest it would be available is to 9th level caster. What's the problem?

Moreover, the tactics and creatures in those modules may be scaled for lower levels. Many of the creatures are CR 5 or 6.

 

[FlimFlam]

The problem is the spell is NOT 5th level (how did we get to 5th level all of a sudden? I thought the consensus was to up it to 4th level, suddenly it's 5th now?) it is a 3rd level spell. We play the game how the rules are written and don't like to change things and make house rules. There is nothing wrong with Blindsight spell... that is unless you combine it with the Deeper Darkness tactic. So because of 1 tactic, the entire spell should be changed or upped in level?

How about instead of changing the spell, the DM adapts the encounters. Which is precisely what this post is about. I'm just concerned we will be fighting Fiendish Dire Bats every other encounter. I don't want that, it's no fun. And fun is what the game should be about.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Apparently all of the following are cheesy encounters

Wizards
Sorcerers
Bards
Clerics
Druids
Paladins
Rogues
Barbarians
Constructs
Undead
Plant Creatures
Oozes
Anything with Blindsight
Anything with Tremoresense
Anything with Scent
Anything that Flys
Any inteligent creatures that have heard of your party

Having eliminated all of these what do you guys fight all the time then?

 

[Enkhidu]

The problem is the spell is NOT 5th level (how did we get to 5th level all of a sudden? I thought the consensus was to up it to 4th level, suddenly it's 5th now?) it is a 3rd level spell. We play the game how the rules are written and don't like to change things and make house rules.

I've got a minor quibble with this, as Blindsight is a FR spell, and was therefore not accounted for in the original rules set. If you really want to play "by the book," my suggestion is that you not use material other than that which you can find in the core books. In fact, the entire FR campaign world is on average more magical and more powerful than the default campaign setting (as shown by the fact that FR characters are built using a 32 point buy instead of a 25 point buy - the extra power is built right in to the setting).

There is nothing wrong with Blindsight spell... that is unless you combine it with the Deeper Darkness tactic. So because of 1 tactic, the entire spell should be changed or upped in level?

How about instead of changing the spell, the DM adapts the encounters. Which is precisely what this post is about. I'm just concerned we will be fighting Fiendish Dire Bats every other encounter. I don't want that, it's no fun. And fun is what the game should be about.

Try this then...

If you are playing in the Forgotten Realms (or another campaign setting equally rich in magic), then the entire campaign is built around the power level assumed by the spells you are using with this tactic, and others will be just as capable, and likely, of using these and similar tactics to the same advantage as the party. In other words, at about the same time as the group hits the right level to use this tactic, their enemies will also be using this tactic.

In my opinion, the best way to stop cheesy tactics is to place the party on the receiving end of them at least once. After all, the party is probably not the first group to come up with this particualr combo.

 

[FlimFlam]

Apparently all of the following are cheesy encounters

Wizards
Sorcerers
Bards
Clerics
Druids
Paladins
Rogues
Barbarians
Constructs
Undead
Plant Creatures
Oozes
Anything with Blindsight
Anything with Tremoresense
Anything with Scent
Anything that Flys
Any inteligent creatures that have heard of your party

Having eliminated all of these what do you guys fight all the time then?

We haven't played in a few weeks now, but from what I remember, the encounters we ran into where we used this tactic were:

(Note: There are 4 people in the game, A Cleric, a Rogue, a Monk and a Sorcerer)

A wyvern
A giant of some sort (Hill giant I think)
Two Ogres
A band of about 10 Rogues (no idea on their levels)
2 Giant spiders

We weren't the same levels on every encounter, just incase you might be wondering why such a difference in CRs.

On at least one of these encounters (I think the Ogre one) we didn't have Blindsight at the time. I would hold the coin (as opposed to the Rogue) and open my hand to expose the Darkness. The Rogue would ready for the light to appear again. So when it went back to my turn, I would Move-Equiv to close my hand with the coin in it. Darkness is gone, Rogue's attack goes off. Then I Move-Equiv to open my hand. Darkness is back, monsters can't see.

Now I already know some people may have issues with this. For one, you could say closing my hand around the coin doesn't make my hand "light-tight" and therefore the darkness would seep out anyway. I could just as easily placed it in a Bag of Holding (that we did have at the time) as a Move-Equiv, then get it back out as a Move-Equiv.

You may also argue that that's technically not how Ready works because the Rogue's action comes before mine. And if it goes before my turn, then my hand wouldn't have been open yet. Thus creating a paradox. There really isn't any reason you couldn't do thus, the game mechanics just don't adjust for this. The Rogue could just as easily say he readied to attack when the darkness reappears. So he would attack before the darkness comes back, which would be right before I open my hand, and there is light at this point. It would be the same effect, just a matter of semantics.

Anyway, that is in the past now and none of that matters at this point because we have Blindsight now, which kindly creates it's own problems (The Cheese Factor =).

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The way the battles work out is usually in our favor. The Rogue holds the coin, and when we are approached by enemies, the Rogue exposes the coin shedding Darkness. I fail to see how this is easy to counter. As someone pointed out, you can't dispel what you can't see. You can't hit (very effectively) what you can't see. Sure, maybe we will run into a group of Wizards who are ready for this tactic once. That is fine. But then what? Keep throwing the same thing at us? That would be cheesy IMO.

Well there are two problems with this. 1. You're the ones running a cheesy tactic. If you don't want cheese, don't be cheesy.

2. Realistically, you would be known for this tactic. People would tell stories "Why just two months ago our village wuz under siege bah sum dasterdly bandeets. But theese brave adventurers, whoo boy. One of 'em reached into his pouch and all uv a suddin it was black as night. Holy Smokes. That's right, I couldn't see mah owen hand een front a' mah face. And theen, all uv a suddin, it wuz light agin and I looked an' waddayaknow, all o' them bandeets wuz lyin' dead on the ground and the guy in leather armor wuz cleaning the blood off 'is rapier." Even with an eyewitness description like that, it wouldn't be hard to tell what was going on. Pretty soon, it'd make it into a few bard songs. And by then, anyone who knew you were their enemies would have to prepare for the tactic. Heck, some other adventurers might even copy the tactic.

A dungeon environment won't hinder the party either. Ok, so now the whole party is encased in Darkness. No problem, I can wait for the Rogue to do the dirty work. Creatures with scent and blindsight are all well and good, but again I ask, how many times can we run into such foes? Again I say cheesy.

And fighters with Blindfight and barbarians and rogues with uncanny dodge. And Elementals and Plants. And Undead. And Devils summoned via Lesser Planar Ally. And wizards or evil clerics able to summon 1d3 fiendish dire bats with a single 4th level spell. I'm sure the thought of summoning something that could deal with the darkness would never occur to an int 15 wizard.

In no encounter we've been involved in has the opponent been at an advantage when we bust out this tactic.

Obviously you haven't had a problem with running into foes with blindsight or tremorsense ever since busting out this tactic. Obviously you haven't run into undead ever since busting out this tactic. In that case I don't think it would be cheesy for you to start running into them every once in a while. In fact, you're probably due for an adventure filled with nothing but undead.

Oh, and you can't double move away. Movement is halfed in darkness. So a double move would = a normal move. You aren't allowed to run in darkness at all. I am pretty sure these are official rules. If they aren't, well we've been using them since day 1.

That is the official rule. Note another official rule: Turning undead requires Line of Sight. So, if the BBEG moves a bunch of huge zombies into the darkness to deal with you, the darkness will prevent your cleric from dealing with them. Come to think of it, if the zombies are reasonably fresh, your blindsight (which, after all, can't discern color) might not even tell you they were undead.

 

[FlimFlam]

I've got a minor quibble with this, as Blindsight is a FR spell, and was therefore not accounted for in the original rules set. If you really want to play "by the book," my suggestion is that you not use material other than that which you can find in the core books.

Then I would have a minor quibble with some of the things the DM is throwing at us. We are running the RttToEE, which I suppose wouldn't be considered Core Rules either. So if you expect the players to use only what is found in the Core Rules, so should the DM. Which leaves out some creatures that are found in this module but not found in the Monster Manual.

I guess that is one way to do it, but then we would have to start the campaign over =(

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

A band of about 10 Rogues (no idea on their levels)
2 Giant spiders

It should also be pointed out that any rogue of level 3+ has uncanny dodge which prevents them from losing their dex bonus against invisible attackers. The tactic shouldn't have worked against them.

IIRC, vermin are immune to crits/sneak attacks as well. . . .

We weren't the same levels on every encounter, just incase you might be wondering why such a difference in CRs.

On at least one of these encounters (I think the Ogre one) we didn't have Blindsight at the time. I would hold the coin (as opposed to the Rogue) and open my hand to expose the Darkness. The Rogue would ready for the light to appear again. So when it went back to my turn, I would Move-Equiv to close my hand with the coin in it. Darkness is gone, Rogue's attack goes off. Then I Move-Equiv to open my hand. Darkness is back, monsters can't see.

Now I already know some people may have issues with this. For one, you could say closing my hand around the coin doesn't make my hand "light-tight" and therefore the darkness would seep out anyway. I could just as easily placed it in a Bag of Holding (that we did have at the time) as a Move-Equiv, then get it back out as a Move-Equiv.

You may also argue that that's technically not how Ready works because the Rogue's action comes before mine. And if it goes before my turn, then my hand wouldn't have been open yet. Thus creating a paradox. There really isn't any reason you couldn't do thus, the game mechanics just don't adjust for this. The Rogue could just as easily say he readied to attack when the darkness reappears. So he would attack before the darkness comes back, which would be right before I open my hand, and there is light at this point. It would be the same effect, just a matter of semantics.

People could also object because any concealment negates the rogue's sneak attack ability. Thus, without blindsight, the rogue shouldn't have been able to sneak attack in the darkness.

 

[Nail]

I guess that is one way to do it, but then we would have to start the campaign over =(

Feh. That's nonesense. We're talking about two things here:

#1) Blindsight is not a core rule spell. Therefore, it can be changed to suit the campign. It doesn't seem to suit you => so change it. Make it 4th or 5th level. Problem solved.

#2) There are many, many ways to have encounters that are challenging to characters with access to Blindsight. We've suggested them to you. You've responded by calling them "cheese". Our response: "Cheese is as Cheese does, sir."

As far as "having to start over": Don't be ridiculous. You've found a non-core rule that was flawed. Change it, and move on.

 

[AuraSeer]

IIRC, vermin are immune to crits/sneak attacks as well. . .

Somebody else thought that earlier in the thread, but the MM doesn't say anything about it. Vermin are affected normally by SA and criticals.

I think the confusion is caused by vermin's lack of an Intelligence score. That's similar to one quality of constructs and undead; since those other types are immune to crits, people subconsciously assign the same quality to vermin.

[coding]