How a DM can counter cheesy PC tactics w/o using cheesy DM tactics.

[Felon]

We've used this tactic in the past.

We don't use it often, though, because the deeper darkness spell has a huge area of effect and it often makes the rest of the party pretty much useless...

Right. Why doesn't this DM simply use numbers to his advantage?

OK, you unleash sneak-attack hell on one guy and hurt him real bad. That still leaves a bunch of other baddies free to stumble into the party.

Rogues get their sneak attacks quite a significant portion of the time simply by flanking, and there are fewer creatures out there that are immune to flanking than can see in darkness. Moreover, while a rogue is flanking, other characters get to attack. Overall, a much better tactic.

Seems to me that if the rest of the party is just sitting around with their hands in their pockets, with nobody doing damage but the rogue, the party is getting the short end of the stick. The players aren't being nearly as clever as they think.

 

[Skaros]

In the Broken Realms, Blindsight is a low level spell available to Druids, Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcerors. Being so ubiquitous, anyone with an intelligence over 6 should expect to routinely encounter (and counter) this tactic. So it's not cheesy for the bad guys to be ready for this, it's just standard operating procedure.

If you want a less cheesy campaign, just say No to Faerun.

OR, just make the small modifications necessary to play effectively in that richly detailed world, such as ruling blindsight isn't sufficient for sneak attacks in your campaign.

I always find it a little offensive when I see someone chiming in to make derogatory references to a campaign world I really enjoy, as if the question was "what camapign world should I switch to (throw out prev purchased materials, buy all new source books, do all new planning, intro players to new gods) to avoid this small problem i found.

-Skaros

 

[dvvega]

Blindsight make darkness and invisibility irrelevant ... it does not grant perfect vision.

I think the ability is not clearly defined in the SRD. Personally, the way I read the ability, the Rogue cannot sneak attack because he can't see (with his eyes) the place to strike.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Ready grapple attacks.

Use the counterspells.

Be immune to criticals.

Leave the area of darkness and attack from the outside.

Cast some spell which prevents your team coordinating (like insect plague, or entangle, or briar web).

Etc.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Why is your DM having such a hard time with the Darkness coin trick. That is as old as 1st Edition.

Several people have hit on the most effective counter - move away.

If the rogue's foe double-moves away making sure to change direction at some point, the rogue has to double-move to follow. Unless he has a haste action, the only way you can attack is with a charge. In order to charge, the rogue has to move in a straight line.

The problem for the rogue is that his foe double-moved out of the darkness and took a turn somewhere in his move. His blindsight almost certainly has less range than his foe's double move so now his long range vision is effectively blinded by his own darkness. His foe is out of blindsight range and he can't see him to charge at him. Since there are 8 possible bearings to where the enemy now stands, If the rogue wants to charge blindly, roll 1d8 to see if he randomly chooses the right bearing.

Also, the DM should start equipping the NPCs with caltrops (improvised caltrops if necessary) or some other cheap ground obstacle. Caltrops are cheap (especially since improvides caltrops can be made out of nails and a potato) and it is perfectly reasonably for people to be carrying some. If the rogue does move through them in the darkness, he'll probably only do so once. I assume characters moving into an area littered with caltrops automatically hit them because no form of creature blindsight is going to pick up 3" caltrops lying on rough ground.

Tzarevitch

 

[ruleslawyer]

I'm rather awed at the level of overestimation of this tactic. I agree that blindsight is too powerful for a 3rd-level spell, but is balanced just about correctly for a 4th-level spell. By this level, a druid can gain 120' blindsight with a splatbook feat.

Even if blindsight is seen to be a powerful spell, darkness + blindsight is a poor tactic at best. How many dungeons are you aware of that have rooms larger than 120' in diameter? That means that in almost any dungeon setting, the entire non-blindsighted portion of the party is blinded. Given the number of monsters with scent, blindsight, etc., and PC dependence on targeted spells and coordinated attacks, darkness is more likely to grant the PCs' foes an advantage than the PCs themselves.

Even in settings in which the other PCs can stay more than 60' from the rogue, those PCs still won't be able to attack anything near the rogue and thence inside the darkened area, as HeavyG pointed out. Not good for the PCs.

Fine, you say. Just have the cleric use up all his 3rd-level spells for the day and cast blindsight on all the party members. Some things to keep in mind:

1) It requires a simple 3rd-level cleric spell or a preexisting 2nd-level wizard spell (daylight) to counter deeper darkness. Anyone with a decent intelligence will have one of these on hand in a world where the blindsight/deeper darkness combo exists. Even more simply, the universally-prepared dispel magic will take care of this problem as well.

2) More monsters have scent, tremorsense, or blindsight than do PCs. Using this tactic against a dragon is a sure-fire way of dying.

3) As I said earlier, either the area involved is going to be so small that the entire party will be blinded, or it's going to be an open space, possibly outdoors. If the latter is correct, the rogue's target need merely run. If the rogue follows, he's likely to get separated from the rest of the party (who can't see what he's doing) and possibly fall into a trap.

4) You're assuming non-spellcasters (i.e. those folk who can't counter or dispel the darkness effect), are you? Against most non-spellcasting creatures, a simple levitation spell cast upon an archer guarantees eventual death, AND handicaps not a single other party member.

 

[Pielorinho]

I'm rather awed at the level of overestimation of this tactic. I agree that blindsight is too powerful for a 3rd-level spell, but is balanced just about correctly for a 4th-level spell. By this level, a druid can gain 120' blindsight with a splatbook feat.
4) You're assuming non-spellcasters (i.e. those folk who can't counter or dispel the darkness effect), are you? Against most non-spellcasting creatures, a simple levitation spell cast upon an archer guarantees eventual death, AND handicaps not a single other party member.

I've seen this tactic in use several times, and it is indeed nasty. I'm not just talking theory here.

And FYI, I don't allow the druid feat, either. It's got the same problems.

Dispel isn't a great counter for this tactic: since you can't target what you can't see, you can only cast it as an AoE spell. If you don't catch the center of the darkness effect, at best you create a small area with light in it -- and since darkness is an emanation, I believe the darkness would fill the area back up next round.

And not all spellcasters will be prepared for this tactic, and not all enemies have spellcasters.

It's not infallible -- no tactic is -- but IME, it's way overpowered, and my players agreed that the game would be more fun if it weren't an option.

Daniel

 

[FlimFlam]

The way the battles work out is usually in our favor. The Rogue holds the coin, and when we are approached by enemies, the Rogue exposes the coin shedding Darkness. I fail to see how this is easy to counter. As someone pointed out, you can't dispel what you can't see. You can't hit (very effectively) what you can't see. Sure, maybe we will run into a group of Wizards who are ready for this tactic once. That is fine. But then what? Keep throwing the same thing at us? That would be cheesy IMO.

A dungeon environment won't hinder the party either. Ok, so now the whole party is encased in Darkness. No problem, I can wait for the Rogue to do the dirty work. Creatures with scent and blindsight are all well and good, but again I ask, how many times can we run into such foes? Again I say cheesy.

In no encounter we've been involved in has the opponent been at an advantage when we bust out this tactic.

Oh, and you can't double move away. Movement is halfed in darkness. So a double move would = a normal move. You aren't allowed to run in darkness at all. I am pretty sure these are official rules. If they aren't, well we've been using them since day 1.

 

[Nail]

In no encounter we've been involved in has the opponent been at an advantage when we bust out this tactic.

..and I think what most of us are argueing is that, other than making blindsight a 4th level spell, the only real problem here is your DM not mixing it up enough.

Take a look at the WotC adventure "Heart of Nightfang Spire", or "Deep Horizons". These adventures are packed with realistic, (mostly) well-reasoned encounters that would be un-hindered by your party's tactic. ...Heck, they'd be cheering you on...between gory mouthfuls of adventurer.

 

[FlimFlam]

"Heart of Nightfang Spire" is designed for a party of level 10s.
"Deep Horizons" is designed for a party of level 13s.

I would expect at level 10 and 13, this tactic wouldn't work too well. So of course most of the encounters in there will be un-hindered by our tactic.