How a DM can counter cheesy PC tactics w/o using cheesy DM tactics.

[AuraSeer]

1) I would use vermin, they don't need to see. and are immune to crits.

Where'd you read that?
Vermin have darkvision, which does not penetrate magical darkness. They are not immune to criticals.

 

[drnuncheon]

The blindsight spell works in a 30' radius.

Really, once you've eliminated all of the ways of combatting this tactic by calling them 'cheesy', there is of course no way to fight it. There are plenty of creatures that are immune to sneak attacks that aren't undead...

That said:

Creatures with Improved Grab ought to cause the rogue a problem - once they've got ahold of him they don't need to roll a miss chance! And the party will have to get rid of the darkness before being able to rescue him effectively.

Creatures with a high Listen score can still figure out where he is and are able to attack him. If they've got reach, they even can hit him with an AoO as he comes in to SA them.

Big creatures. If the rogue can't reach the vitals, he can't sneak attack. The creature's not immune per se, just difficult to SA.

Mobile creatures. If it's faster than the rogue, all it has to do is Ready an action - 'when the rogue comes near me, I go the other way'. Eventually it'll be out of the darkness radius.

Scent is almost as good as blindsight, and a whole lot of creatures have it.

One or more of the above is always nice. Chuuls have reach and improved grab, as well as a decent Listen score. Hellcats have scent and Improved Grab - and it'll be invisible when the party gets rid of the darkness effect! ("Why is the rogue just rolling around on the ground and bleeding like that?") There are plenty of foes that will thwart this tactic, and if you use a good mixture of them, it will not become cheesy. And when the tactic is not used in every battle, it will no longer be cheesy as well...

J

 

[Kyramus]

Where'd you read that?
Vermin have darkvision, which does not penetrate magical darkness. They are not immune to criticals.

oops. now what was I thinking. well the thought's gone, strike that from the list I made.

 

[kreynolds]

Is it really based just on vibration.

Yes. It specifically states so in the spell description.

The target creature gains sensitivity to vibrations, so that it maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature.

 

[IceBear]

Cool - then why isn't the spell called Tremorsense instead of Blindsense, because that's really all it is in that case.

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

I think you're thinking of tremorsense, which can only detect things that touch the ground.

Looks that way, doesn't it?

Blindsight isn't restricted that way

It's restricted to vibrations, but as you said, not to the ground. You're probably right about a winged creature, but a fly spell doesn't create such vibrations.

 

[kreynolds]

Cool - then why isn't the spell called Tremorsense instead of Blindsense, because that's really all it is in that case.

As AuraSeer pointed out, it isn't restricted to the ground. Winged creatures would probably create enough of a vibration to be picked up by it, but I doubt levitating creatures or creatures under the effects of a fly spell would.

 

[Nail]

How about these tactics (usable by "a normal monster, such as a ogre"):

• Attack the rest of the party. They're visible, aren't they? Why charge into the deeper darkness when there are all of these nice juicy targets out in the light?
  
• Moreover, monsters with a CR of 2 or more might (should, in Faerun!) have expendible magic items, like a potion of invisibility. (House rule check: does an invisible creature, standing still, make "vibrations"?) No dispel magic needed. Drink, then ready an action, to attack whoever attacks you. Both you and the rogue have a 50% miss chance, and I'll bet th' ogre can do more damage per hit.
  
• Or, be even sneaker and combine the two above: drink the potion when in the rogue's darkness, then charge out and attack the rest of the party.
  
• I'm not sure copying this PC tactic should be limited to those NPC that have seen the party in action. Surely there are other smart people in your campaign? Would they not also happen upon such an effective tactic? (This should remind some of the "buff-scry-teleport" discussion awhile back).
  
• Give monsters levels of rogue. (Duh!)
  
• No blindsight? RUN AWAY. It'll do wonders.....

If you treat th' goons like dumb meat-shields, then dumb meat-shields they'll be.

 

[Drawmack]

Two words sonic attacks.

How is this for a counter. You come up on a party that is 3 wizards and three rogues. The wizards cast blind fight on their three rogues and sick all three of them on your rogue. Then they cast mage armor on themselves and begin unleashing sonic attacks against the rest of the party while the are protected by your little darkness thingy.

Anyway as far as I'm concerned you are using a cheesy technique and the DM has every right to be cheesy back at you.

I would probably engineer something that can do a TPK in three rounds against this tactic and throw it at you. Just to teach you a lesson about always using the same tactic.

 

[AuraSeer]

It's restricted to vibrations, but as you said, not to the ground. You're probably right about a winged creature, but a fly spell doesn't create such vibrations.

I still think you're reading too much into the vibrations thing.

According to the description of the Blindsight special ability, it "makes invisibilty and darkness irrelevant to the creature." The rogue gets exactly that benefit: he gets to ignore invisibility and darkness, full stop. He is not limited to sensing only ground-bound creatures unless the spell specifically says so. (Vibrations can be transmitted through the air, which is why Blindsight doesn't work in a vacuum.)

If someone activates a Silence effect, then you could argue that "vibrations" = "sound", and stop the blindsight that way. But simply rising off the floor won't give any benefit against the ability.