How a DM can counter cheesy PC tactics w/o using cheesy DM tactics.

[Derren]

Right Auraseer.

Without making house rules, a person with blindsight "sees" everything in the blindsight radius regardless if its flying, invisible, concealed, don´t moving, etc.

Silence only affects sonic based blindsight (and only sonic based blindsight) which depends on hearing. (Bat, Destrachan)
Silence doesn´t affect any other Blindsight.

 

[kreynolds]

I still think you're reading too much into the vibrations thing.

Maybe. It's a tough call.

 

[doktorstick]

Blindsight is a level 3 or 4 Cleric spell from Magic of Faerun.

Alternatively, whip out the blacklight spell on the rogue. Darkness travels with him and only he can see in it. Darkness and blindsigh all in one. It's duration is only 1/rnd per level, though.

You could combine this with thunderbeam (the name may be slightly off) that allows you make melee attacks from 1 to 20 feet. Great for making AoO considering you threaten a 20 foot diameter.

Both spells are from FRCS.

Cheers,
/ds

 

[doktorstick]

It's restricted to vibrations, but as you said, not to the ground. You're probably right about a winged creature, but a fly spell doesn't create such vibrations.

Sure it does, unless you are in a vacuum. You have to displace air particles, clothes flap, hair moves, chests heave as one breathes, etc.

/ds

 

[doktorstick]

Reputation. Presumably they don't successfully kill every thing they come across. NPCs, and not even those that smart, flee. And as such, word gets out about the PCs tactic. Groups start using it against them, have particular counters ready, etc.

This doesn't help against monsters, but then again you can beef their numbers up so they can overwhelm the party. The power of the mob.

/ds

 

[Pielorinho]

Creatures with a high Listen score can still figure out where he is and are able to attack him. If they've got reach, they even can hit him with an AoO as he comes in to SA them.

Scent is almost as good as blindsight, and a whole lot of creatures have it.
J

A couple corrections:

First, if you're blind, you don't threaten the area around you. (I think -- I'm having trouble finding a rules-cite on this, so I could be wrong).

Scent is almost as good as blindsight, except that it doesn't eliminate the 50% miss chance, and it takes either a MEA or a standard action to use.

Blindsight + Darkness is a tactic one of my players used to great effect, once. It was such an uberpowerful tactic that I banned the spell blindsight from my campaign; the player who used the the tactic agreed. For the cost of a second and a third level spell, one character gets a power that is in many ways superior to a fourth-level spell: it's got a much longer duration than improved invisibility, it halves opponent's movement speed, reduces their dex and str for most checks, and prevents them from targeting your friends. In exchange, of course, it can't be used for stealth, and it can mess up your allies if you don't use it wisely.

I'd suggest you either reduce blindsight's duration to 1 minute (or even 1 round) per level, or else you increase its level to 5 or higher -- or else get rid of the spell entirely. The spell's designers probably weren't thinking about how it worked in connection with a darkness spell, or if they were, they were hitting the bong pretty heavily that night.

Daniel

 

[kreynolds]

The spell's designers probably weren't thinking about how it worked in connection with a darkness spell, or if they were, they were hitting the bong pretty heavily that night.

Or they confused Tremorsense with Blindsight. I get the feeling that Tremorsense is what they were going for. It's a lot more manageable.

 

[AuraSeer]

Right Auraseer.

Without making house rules, a person with blindsight "sees" everything in the blindsight radius regardless if its flying, invisible, concealed, don´t moving, etc.

Almost right. Blindisght doesn't negate concealment, unless that concealment comes from darkness or invisibility.

If you're standing in a thicket and have three-quarters concealment from the foliage, the rogue will have a 30% miss chance on you (and will therefore be unable to sneak attack). Blindsight doesn't see through solid objects.

 

[HeavyG]

We've used this tactic in the past.

We don't use it often, though, because the deeper darkness spell has a huge area of effect and it often makes the rest of the party pretty much useless...

 

[Gaiden]

It seems that the reason why this tactic is cheesy is because of a very obvious oversight. How exactly is the coin exposed?

Let us presume that the coin is kept in some compartment (a seemingly necessary condition if one is to expose a coin). Two things are true. First, when the coin is in the sealed compartment, the darkness is limited to the interior of that container. Second, when the coin is out of the compartment, the darkness is limited only by its area of effect and any obstacles blocking that area.

The oversight is transferring the coin from the interior of the compartment to the exterior of the compartment. Consider a test case for the point of this post:

Assume that the compartment being used is a small belt pouch. When that pouch is sealed, the darkness spell's area of effect is contained within the belt pouch. When the coin is outside of the pouch it functions normally. What happens during the process of taking the coin out of the pouch? Well first there is the process of opening the pouch. However, as soon as the pouch is opened a cone of darkness will emit from the effective hole in the barrier to the area of effect of the spell. Any and every one will see this beam. Next the coin-holding belt pouch wearing person will have to grab the coin. (Remember that unless the coin holder also has blindsight he/she will not be able to see it - rule on that how you like). What will happen as the coin is actually removed from the pouch? Well as the center of the radius shifts towards the edge of the barrier (the belt pouch) to the area of effect its beam will widen. Until a globe of darkness suddenly envelopes the coin holder. I am assuming that only the rogue had blindsight and therefore whoever has the coin is now effectively blinded: 50% miss chance. The coin holder than has to get the coin to the desired location. He is blind though. Let's assume that this obstacle is overcome however.

Now let's consider the perspective of the opponents. They see the coinholder reach into the pouch and a beam of darkness suddenly emits from the pouch (I would allow a spell craft check to know that it was a darkness spell and not some other magical/planar effect). They then see a globe of darkness appear around the person who just reached into the pouch. Then they will see that globe of darkness coming towards them until they are blinded. If the coin was thrown they will most likely see the path of travel of the globe (probably with a bit of arc to it). And if it was carried they will see it moving along the path of the carrier.

To me it would be pretty darn obvious that the darkness was contained by a solid barrier. So I am now a melee fighter with no spellcasting capabilities. What do I do after I have been ambushed by this tactic. I take off my cloak and trail it along the ground behind me as I take a double move away from the person who just sneak attacked me. Either I will leave the area of effect of the darkness and high tale it out of there or I will wind up covering the coin. Sure, I don't know that it was a coin. But I do know it was something small enough to fit inside a pouch.

There are even further limitations to this. Let's say that the fighter doesn't do this but instead decides to stay and fight in the area. What happens when one of the characters is in the square where the coin is lying? It's got to certainly be possible for one of them to step on the coin - effectively creating a similar barrier that the belt pouch provided. I don't know exactly how I would rule this, maybe rule that a strobe effect occurred giving 90% concealment (I know: house rule). The point, though is that if the coin is on the ground then it can be stepped on which would limit its area of effect and once that happened the opponent would certainly realize to cover it.

This tactic is very effective, don't get me wrong. But an intelligent adversary should be able to defeat it easily - absent any cheesiness. To make the tactic as effective as everyone thinks it is is going to require a bit on ingenuity. First the whole compartment thing is going to have to be changed around. I would store the coin in some breakable compartment (maybe a ceramic sphere) and simply throw the item at the individual. That way they will never know if it was a spell effect or something inside the container that caused the effect. This could be augmented by attaching that container to another projectile, like a flask of alchemist's fire, or a tanglefoot bag - actually the tanglefoot bag would be really nasty as then the coin would most likely be stuck to the individual in question (and they wouldn't even know it). An even more effective tactic would be to cast the darkness on a weapon, like a dart and keep it on the inside of a blow gun. Tip the dart in poison and then you have quite a nice collection of effects all happening at the same time.