How a DM can counter cheesy PC tactics w/o using cheesy DM tactics.

[FlimFlam]

Thanks for all the nice suggestions.

Just to clarify, the reasons I call them "cheesy" is because I think it is "cheesy" for a DM to come up with a tactic that specifically counters a PCs tactic. I mean, all the time that is. It gets redundant. If we were a party of Rogues but all the DM ever threw at us were undead and constructs, then being a Rogue would be pretty lame, wouldn't it?

There are also two sides to this. The first side is that it is being smart. If we (the players) have a tactic that works well for us, it would be dumb not to take advantage of it. Any good team would.

On the flip side, it doesn't seem very heroic IMO. What if the Fellowship of the Ring had this tactic available to them? The encounters they ran into would have been very boring (especially for us movie viewers). Gandalf casts Deeper Darkness, then Blindsight on Aragorn. Orc army approaches, Darkness is unleashed, Aragorn goes to work. In a few short minutes, orc army is dead. Rinse and repeat.

Anyway, thanks again for your suggestions!

 

[Dursk Starkfire]

isn't your darkness/blindsight tactic, by your own definition, cheesy?
I say fight cheese with more cheese! Otherwise, you'll find yourself to be a one-trick pony, and what fun is riding on an ass all day?

 

[FlimFlam]

Well, yes it is cheesy. But also incredibly effective. Why should we stop using an effective tactic though? That would be stupid, and I'd rather be cheesy and effective rather then stupid.

 

[Drawmack]

It is not cheesy for a DM to counter player tactics. Here is how it works in my group.

If a tactic is used in combat against intellegent foes, or where intellegent beings can see it and all of those intellegent beings (let's say the little girl you're rescuing) are not killed then word gets out about the tactic. Once word is out about the tactic anyone who knows they will be coming up against you in battle can be prepared for it.

(I play in freeport so the players mostly fight intellegent beings)

My players have strategy hour before the game starts. I am not in the room and they freely discuss tactics and things. They also email each other constantly. This means that when we go into battle they have the equivolent of a football teams playbook and all their plays are number. Someone yells out 42, allowed in the heat of battle, and everyone in the party knows what to do. You better bet that if anyone in the city saw this happen the next time the players yell out 42 the bad guys know what it means too though.

Using the same tactic in every fight is cheesy it doesn't matter if it's the DM or the players.

 

[Pielorinho]

Yet another solution for your DM: if y'all use this tactic regularly, he should consider your party level to be 1-3 levels higher than normal. This means he should be using higher EL encounters and giving you fewer XP per encounter.

This represents the fact that you're a much more powerful group than a standard group of your level, since you're using a cheesy tactic. And it'll make the game be still challenging for you. And it doesn't involve any cheesy in-game tactics on the DM's part that would break suspension of disbelief.

Daniel

 

[Nail]

Banning Blindsight seems needlessly draconian. Bumbing it up a level or two only delays the problem...and that problem is: "Hey, we've got a super-magic combo that always works!"

The solution is simple: The PCs aren't the only smart people on th' planet. Thus having the NPCs have a counter almost every time is not chessy. It's smart. And it doesn't require fore-knowledge of the PCs.

In fact, the DM should be thinking up all sorts of "super-combos". I suggest reading these 'boards for help with that.

If the players complain, ask them if they really want a world with dumb NPCs. Some might. If that's what's fun...hey, who are you to say?

 

[Pielorinho]

Banning Blindsight seems needlessly draconian. Bumbing it up a level or two only delays the problem...and that problem is: "Hey, we've got a super-magic combo that always works!"

No, actually, banning one overpowered spell from a splatbook isn't draconian, needlessly or otherwise. What a bizarre idea.

Bumping it up a few levels is actually a fine solution, I think: this combination is far too powerful for a second- and a third-level spell, but it's fine for a second- and a fifth- level spell. My problem is that it creates something about as good as a fourth-level spell (improved invisibility), only with sixty times the duration. Get rid of that problem, and you're fine.

Daniel

 

[IceBear]

I don't see banning blindsight as needless draconian (though my house rule of blindsight not allowing sneak attacks is my alternative) as it's not a core spell. It came out of one of the Forgotten Realms books. Just because something is published by WotC doesn't mean it's automatically in my campaing. The core books got most of the playtesting, so everything else is suspect. Thus, if someone wants a spell, feat, etc for another source it has to be approved by the group first. Blindsight is one that will probably not be approved by the group.

IceBear

 

[HeavyG]

My problem is that it creates something about as good as a fourth-level spell (improved invisibility), only with sixty times the duration. Get rid of that problem, and you're fine.

Hmm...

It's not as good as improved invisibility!! It makes the rest of the group mostly useless ! For about as much magical investment. (2nd+3rd level vs 4th level)

Unless of course you cast it on every PC. Now that would be cheesy.

 

[Nail]

I don't see banning blindsight as needless draconian...

Alrighty then, let's put it a diferrent way:
Surely a spell that duplicates some other creature's extrodinary ability is not out of line? (That is, it's not something that "cannot be duplicated by magic".)

Draconian usually implies harsh and unreasonable. I think banning the spell outright falls into that catagory. I stated that bumping the spell up a level or two would be preferable. ....I think you might even agree with this last bit.

And yes, of course you don't have to accept at face-value whatever is in a splatbook. Come on, we're not a bunch of 1st graders listening to a spelling lesson here.

BTW, banning th' spell only removes the tactic from th' PCs -- it would still be very useable by the NPCs......why aren't all the bad guys with blindsight doing this? Oh, they are? Great.....so how do the players feel about that?