How are melee characters expected to deal with flying creatures?

[Herschel]

I'm sorry to say, complaining about fliers against one's min/maxed melee ranger or whatever really comes accross to me as whining about something that is really the fault of the player or players. Others have pointed out a ton of ways to deal with them. In a game the other night we had our two melee guys in a cavern with shadowhunter bats harrying us. 20' ceilings. Welcome to Lightning Lure and readied actions. Heck, it also made sure we used focused damage instead of spreading it around.

Parties simply should be built to deal with basically whatever is thrown at them. If they aren't, that's on the players. Controllers, defenders and leaders are a lot of fun to play in a group setting if people can get past the "I wanna pwn damage" mentality.

 

[mneme]

Avengers are fine. They have their choice of ranged at wills, and all their ranged options are very, very good (yes, they lose the double-roll on RV, but it's still quite good, due to the temporary HP it grants. Or they can grab Bond of Censure, which while range 5 (though you can use items to boost the range, and should, given that at high levels the pull will be larger than the range!) -does- get the double roll and will yank the flier down to where the other melee characters can get at it (or you can action point attack it with an encounter or daily). Moreover, they have numerous teleporting and flying options they can use -- including paragon paths that provide all-day flight or flight on a charge.

Charisma Paladins OTOH, have big problems. Sure, they have the -option- for ranged encounters and dailys...but -no- good ranged basic, no ranged at wills...

Hmm. Shielding Swordmages might also be a problem (again, Int+Con = no ranged options), though swordmages do get a fair number of teleports, ranged or area powers, and do have a single ranged at will power (and a pull, at that), though with range 3, you'd need to boost it for it to have any usefulness against fliers.

Huh. You could make a not-horrible argument that Intelligent Blademaster (unlike Melee Training) lets you throw melee weapons using your Intelligence as a basic attack.

 

[Obryn]

Avengers are fine with their ranged attacks. Seriously, I suggest that Avengers take one melee At-Will for their bread & butter attack, but then take a Ranged At-Will for the other one.

Otherwise they're simply unprepared for situations where they are Slowed or Immobilized or fighting a flying creature.

-O

 

[The_Gneech]

Marking is LoS, isn't it? (Don't have my books handy.) That's one way to get them to come to you -- and in fact, half the purpose of the ability.

-The Gneech

 

[Snowbird]

What a great point. I like the idea of a Fighter picking up a rock, throwing it at the flying beast and saying, "Here, fight me!"

 

[mneme]

Gneech, marking depends a lot on the class.

Fighters mark when they attack, so they need a thrown weapon (or even, since they mark on an attack, not a hit, a bow to pull out when they need long range marks--wow, a reason for a fighter to use a bow!), but most marks are very weak at range (just the -2, no riders).
Wardens mark adjacent foes, so no love.
Swordmages can -use- their mark at range (and with a feat, that can be "close burst 20", which is usually plenty), but can only mark within a Close Burst 2. Which is curious, there aren't even any feats to extend that burst, though they can get featss that will let them mark two targets within the burst, all targets, etc.
Paladins mark with a close burst 5, and only have to engage the target -- so while they don't have the nigh-unlimited marking range of a fighter, once they've gotten within 5 and dropped a mark down, they can maintain the mark indefinately (as long as they have bolts or amunition or a magical throwing weapon) and it's more effective than just a -2 on attacking anyone except the pally.

Avengers are fine with their ranged attacks. Seriously, I suggest that Avengers take one melee At-Will for their bread & butter attack, but then take a Ranged At-Will for the other one.

This.

The first melee at-will for an Avenger is golden.

The second? Is a power not measurably better than a charge, and not giving you substantial options beyond "charge or mba or primary at-will". Whereas slotting a ranged attack gives you -substantial- choices over what you started with.

Moreover, an Avenger, because they do not have the power to re-purpose their Oath without ending the encounter or defeating the target (or use a valuable level 2 utility that's better spent on a teleport that you'll use every encounter) shouldn't always use Oath at the very beginning of an encounter, as it often takes a round or two to know what the best targets for your oath are. And as long as you're not running Oath, you're better off hitting something at range and maybe splatting a minion, rather then getting mired in melee combat with something that will have friends around to help it.

 

[ExploderWizard]

What are ranged characters supposed to do when flying creatures land and start eating them?

What are non-flying characters supposed to do when they encounter gravity?

These and other conundrums will be answered in DMG III, chapter 5: My players are brain dead, now what?

 

[keterys]

Eh, seems to me like blue dragons and bloodfire harpies can hang out at range 20 and screw up lots of parties. The harpy can even just total defense to make the fighter pulling out a javelin even worse off.

And 20 is outside the range of most casters.

But, sure, go ahead and call parties that have problems with that brain dead. Whatever makes you feel better

 

[ExploderWizard]

Eh, seems to me like blue dragons and bloodfire harpies can hang out at range 20 and screw up lots of parties. The harpy can even just total defense to make the fighter pulling out a javelin even worse off.

And 20 is outside the range of most casters.

But, sure, go ahead and call parties that have problems with that brain dead. Whatever makes you feel better

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.

Sun Tzu


The obvious answer is to not engage in situations where one is hopelessly outclassed.

If your opponent has air superiority then you must neutralize it. If the DM creates a situation where you must engage in mindless combat against such a foe without there being any intelligent alternatives available then simply have your PC strip, bend over , and get it over with quickly.

 

[bganon]

Eh, seems to me like blue dragons and bloodfire harpies can hang out at range 20 and screw up lots of parties. The harpy can even just total defense to make the fighter pulling out a javelin even worse off.

Meh, if the blue dragon stays at range where only a fraction of the party can attack it, it's also not using Frightful Presence or Draconic Fury (or Thunder/Wing Clap at high levels) which means it's only at a fraction of its full potential. The breath weapon isn't too bad, but Lightning Burst is really pretty weak for something that's supposed to be equivalent to 4-5 normal monsters.

And maybe it's just me, but I'd feel like a huge jerk if I didn't allow my players to avoid the Burning Song aura by covering their ears. And if they can't because of some other melee threats, well, that makes it an interesting encounter! Harpies are clumsy fliers anyway, so circling out of reach is a bad idea; they're probably going to want some kind of perch that the players ought to be able to eventually get to.

But anyway, as I argued previously, I think people are focusing way too much on class powers. IME, each character easily has three items with daily powers by the time they hit paragon, and they're pretty foolish if at least one isn't movement-related. By epic, there are flight-enabling items available in at least foot, neck, and ring slots, plus a couple slotless wondrous items, plus potions. That's without getting into the similar number of items that negate flight some other way.