How are melee characters expected to deal with flying creatures?

[UngeheuerLich]

And yet, by conceding that the party _can't_ deal with it, responses that basically act like the OP's concerns are trivial or meaningless or suggest that parties stuck in such circumstances are brainless are, well, not very useful responses.

I wouldn't throw an encounter at the party that was both supremely boring and potentially unwinnable (like a dragon who could do damage to them while they had no recourse except to run to something several minutes away)... but some DMs would just consider it a good challenge, or note that's what the random encounter table threw against the party, or just flat out not realize how bad things could be.

So it's a valid conversation to have. And it doesn't have to be just dragons. I was only giving examples of low level creatures that have flight and range 20 significant damage, since range 20 is outside of the range of a massive percentage of magic abilities.

Hmmh, let me rephrase:

as a DM you can always set up unwinnable encounters, even against equal level foes, or even against lower level foes, if they have favourable terrain. And for flyers, the open filds are favourite terrain.

It is your responsibility as a DM to make the encounter interesting despite it beeing nearly unwinnable. Surviving such an encounter is already a challenge and should be rewarded.
The trick is to set up a trap or hunt the Dragon down with appropriate weapons spells and rituals.

4e has an answer for many situations, but you can always break any system if you want. And the usual reaction should be creativity. And this is what makes it an RPG and not a board game...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think both Keterys and Ungeheuerlich have good points. Its worth considering what sorts of encounters might be unwinnable for a party and also what exactly that implies in terms of how players could respond and what would make an interesting scenario out of say Keterys' blue dragon example. It is quite possible that a DM might, even unwittingly, place a party in that type of situation. I have to say though that the possibility has always and will always exist. Even barring flight there are certainly ways to create unwinnable encounters, though admittedly most of them the party can at least refuse. It is simply incumbent on the DM to be able to recognize this sort of thing and provide some interesting alternative to inevitable defeat.

There is one factor though that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Ranged powers do seem to have a pretty hard upper limit of 20 squares, but this is NOT true of archery. Longbows have a range of 40, crossbow has range 30, superior crossbow has range 40 and greatbow has a range of 50 squares. Far Shot can increase these slightly and magic ammo and certain items can increase it a bit more. Granted this kind of range is only likely to be available to one or two characters in a party, but one decent archer ranger with a greatbow may be all it takes to tip the balance against the example blue dragon, assuming the rest of the party spreads out a bit. So I'm not sure its a totally dire situation for the party in all cases.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I also strongly believe, if a DM allows a dragon to stay at exactly 21 squares away he is doing his job wrong...

inevitable defeat by unfair means is never fun. Such encounters are rather plot devices or should break the usual "kill whatever we encounter" kind of scenarios. I can imagine a lot of scenarios where fleeing from an unkillable beast is a cool thing to lure it into a trap. And there are a lot of movies where such a senario appears.

Kill everything is no fun either. It may be old school, but sometimes it is fun to challenge the players instead of the PCs.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Tied into this issue is one of DMing style - are you the type of DM that expects their players to be versitile and who speficially attacks their weaknesses, or are you one who avoids doing so and thus allows the players to concentrate on what their characters do best? Or, more likely, where on the continuum between the extremes does your groups play fall?

Neither approaches are wrong - its simply a difference in playstyle. What would kill the fun is if the encounter doesn't suit your group's playstyle - for example, springing a dragon using such "stay away tactics" on a melee heavy group without any indication that you might penalize the group for overspecialization.

 

[lukelightning]

Re. The Artillery Dragon of Doom situation:

I'd turn it into a skill challenge, something like this:

Use social skills to lure the dragon in (diplomacy to coax it closer, bluff to trick it into coming in closer, intimidate to anger it so it loses its cool and rushes in). Acrobatic stunts could help (leap out into a position that tempts the dragon to move closer). Athletics to throw debris at the dragon to hinder its flight. Insight might be a good secondary skill that can succeed once (you gain insight into what might get the dragon to land), as well as arcana (knowledge that blue dragons like to swoop in such-and-such manner, or whatever).

If you fail an attempt you lose a healing surge (representing the dragon's attack).

If you succeed in the challenge, the dragon is on the ground 5 squares away or something. If the entire challenge fails each character loses a healing surge and maybe even some gold (representing they have to bribe the dragon to leave them alone), and the dragon takes off back to its lair.

 

[Stalker0]

I also strongly believe, if a DM allows a dragon to stay at exactly 21 squares away he is doing his job wrong...

There's a certain blend here. While the DM has to tailor his encounters for his party, you also want most parties to handle a wide variety of encounters.

I think this is a weakness in 4e's power system.

In 3e, a fighter's power is represented in his weapon and his multiple attacks. A fighter with a powerful bow in hand can do solid damage, though not as high as with his weapon.

In 4e, a fighter's main power comes from both his weapon and his powers. You can give them a good magic ranged weapoin....but they can't use any powers with it. At will attacks become weaker and weaker at higher levels, so the damage disparity grows.

 

[lukelightning]

In 4e, a fighter's main power comes from both his weapon and his powers. You can give them a good magic ranged weapoin....but they can't use any powers with it. At will attacks become weaker and weaker at higher levels, so the damage disparity grows.

I know it's not the best solution, but multiclassing can help.

 

[Mirtek]

Welcome to Lightning Lure and readied actions.

Actually LL is completly useless against a flyer, you can't even damage it. Forced movement can't move vertically and if you can't pull, the whole power fails.

 

[keterys]

A bit of an aside, but it is my understanding that the 'not vertical' part of forced movement was only intended to cover using forced movement to induce falling damage (ie, by sending people up) and it is standardly accepted among WotC that you can pull downwards and that interpretation will be making it into an FAQ of some kind.

But my understanding is often flawed, and I'd have thought it would hit an FAQ by now.

 

[Nifft]

A bit of an aside, but it is my understanding that the 'not vertical' part of forced movement was only intended to cover using forced movement to induce falling damage (ie, by sending people up) and it is standardly accepted among WotC that you can pull downwards and that interpretation will be making it into an FAQ of some kind.

This was my understanding as well. If the rules say you can't Pull a flier down, then I guess I'll need a house rule.

Cheers, -- N