How big is Baldur's gate?

[Tovec]

I think it depends on what technological level FR is set. I know when I was doing research for my own setting I decided to squew earlier in history as opposed to the later (and larger) population numbers. In my setting it ranges from 100-200 million worldwide, a population which I think is comparable to the domain controlled by the roman empire at its peak (I think, haven't done research on this in a while). Also, for my setting, most of the population doesn't live on the main continent and so a major city is usually 20k-100k. Especially large ones will be more, but not usually going over 200k. That is a huge difference from the major centre of 1 million you are suggesting. I think it also comes with different assumptions though, what kinds of resources are available, how prolific trade is when you have many times more people in a few days travel and when a city is so much larger as to be a trade hub for millions and millions of people.

In general, I think the numbers you have been given are probably pretty good overall. They seem to have backing in canon material too so that helps. But hundreds of thousands is a more realistic figure than millions (in a pre-modern setting). Even if you are going for the roman empire figures then it starts to skew much higher but in that case you also have to realize they were the biggest government in the world and controlled most of it. So the figures (I seem to recall) were maybe 100 million in the roman empire - that is most of the world at the time - which affords a much larger capital. But that is much different than a free city or a smallish kingdom that FR seems to be defined as having.

 

[GreyLord]

At least it doesn't do one big mistake I saw in PF (I love PF, but sometimes they go waaaay to small for village sizes). They had a village in a module of 135 indivuduals, total population, away from any other populations. Just to start with...with a population that small...sure they could survive...but they aren't going to really have the amenities talked about in the module. Furthermore, most of them wouldn't be IN the village, they'd be farming for food. However, the biggest point of unbelievability...

They sacrificed a member of their village every new moon. That's where I just had to increase the village to be a town of at least 1,350 individuals. Why? Because killing someone every new moon in an isolated village, means no village in a matter of years if it only had 135 individuals.

I'd rather go higher than lower simply because when you look at what medieval villages could and could not do...some modules give villages FAR more credit then they should. It's enough to roll your eyes at. Even these days, when you visit villages which are that size...even with all the cars and transportion, and communications and such...they still lack and are "backwards" (not trying to be insultive...but I'm trying to show that they really may not be on as up and up on technology in the village itself as a big city) in comparison to what most individuals are used to.

So to ascribe all the modern conveniences in a village that one finds in a city...that's what I roll my eyes at half the time for a lot of these RPG adventures...but then I remember...these are people who probably focused on English and the arts and not business (where population sizes are considered in regards to marketing and advertising as well as sales), population demographics, or anthropology or biological sciences). Normally I CAN hold off my reality checks in favor of my imagination and the fun of the game...but there ARE some instances like that PF module above...where I simply shake my head and think...did ANYONE actually consider they'd have killed off most of the village in 5 years at the rate they are discussing?

As for Baldurs Gate...how big is it AFTER they entire cataclysmic thing of 4e though? That would be around the size of it in MiBG I think.

 

[Gilladian]

One of the questions to ask when you see a population figure is "what are they counting?" Able bodied men? Able bodied adults? All residents? In the old JG products, as I recall, they were counting the first. You could essentially triple the number to find the true population by head-count. Also don't forget, usually a "village" with 135 people in it serves a community that is 7-10 times that size, in the near vicinity (within an hour's walk). If you pull from THAT population, then sacrificing one per month becomes less absurd.

Rome had a population of about 500-750,000 at the time of Augustus Caesar. That's probably the upper limit of a pre-medieval or medieval city. As someone upthread mentioned, at that point sewage and food supply become your limiters. If you can assume magical sewage disposal (otyugh pits, anyone?) and create food/water from temples, then a city could be bigger, I suppose.

 

[GreyLord]

One of the questions to ask when you see a population figure is "what are they counting?" Able bodied men? Able bodied adults? All residents? In the old JG products, as I recall, they were counting the first. You could essentially triple the number to find the true population by head-count. Also don't forget, usually a "village" with 135 people in it serves a community that is 7-10 times that size, in the near vicinity (within an hour's walk). If you pull from THAT population, then sacrificing one per month becomes less absurd.

Rome had a population of about 500-750,000 at the time of Augustus Caesar. That's probably the upper limit of a pre-medieval or medieval city. As someone upthread mentioned, at that point sewage and food supply become your limiters. If you can assume magical sewage disposal (otyugh pits, anyone?) and create food/water from temples, then a city could be bigger, I suppose.

That would make sense, except the module made it pretty clear the village was isolated and the 135 included all the farmers and was ALL of them, families...so men, women, and children all equaled to be 135.

When PF does stats like that, I have to roll my eyes and wonder how this village which has been sacrificing one of their members every new moon for the past century...still even exists...

 

[Gilladian]

Yeah, it was a pretty silly situation. Worthy of an eye-roll. Like you, I would have increased the population, and NO MATTER what they said, I'd have assumed there were at least the same number if not 2-3x the number of people living nearby in outlying farms. You just can't have EVERYONE living in the village, UNLESS there are very specific reasons. In some areas of Russia or nearby countries, for example, the villages were walled with high earthen walls, and everyone lived inside. There were two very good reasons; 1) wolves, and 2) winter storms/blizzards. Both made living in the open, without shelter, a very risky proposition. In very bad winters, the snow literally filled the walls, and they tunneled from house to house. If you were on your own in an isolated farmhouse, you'd better have 2-3 months worth of firewood, water and food stored up. And not need to get to the barn to care for your animals (most likely, house and barn were the same building).

 

[Morrus]

Rome at the height of its power had nearly a milion people living in it.

Otherwise known as a few hundred thousand.

 

[Blackwarder]

Otherwise known as a few hundred thousand.

Fair enough, when I hear few I think more than one less than five.

Warder

 

[howandwhy99]

A lot of contemporary takes on Forgotten Realms hold it as a magically infused world with all of the continent spanning communication, knowledge, ease of travel, technology and hundreds of other similarities to late 20th century United States. This is actually a pretty common practice in most game settings, fantasy or otherwise. A lot of imagination is required to understand our immediate world as exceptionally different than it is now. We have to radically alter our minds to understand lives in other places existent today.

 

[MarkB]

At least it doesn't do one big mistake I saw in PF (I love PF, but sometimes they go waaaay to small for village sizes). They had a village in a module of 135 indivuduals, total population, away from any other populations. Just to start with...with a population that small...sure they could survive...but they aren't going to really have the amenities talked about in the module. Furthermore, most of them wouldn't be IN the village, they'd be farming for food. However, the biggest point of unbelievability...

They sacrificed a member of their village every new moon. That's where I just had to increase the village to be a town of at least 1,350 individuals. Why? Because killing someone every new moon in an isolated village, means no village in a matter of years if it only had 135 individuals.

Maybe the sacrifices were the reason they were down to 135 people.

 

[amerigoV]

As someone upthread mentioned, at that point sewage and food supply become your limiters. If you can assume magical sewage disposal (otyugh pits, anyone?) and create food/water from temples, then a city could be bigger, I suppose.

I've been play the Balder Gate (Expanded Edition) - BG definitely has sewer with all sort of interesting things in them.