How come all the Epic spells suck?

[Chris Parker]

When I first saw the rules for epic spells, I knew I had a new favorite class. While mages arent my steal Pre-Epic, the ability to customize my armada is just too tempting.

So I take a look through the spells, and immediatly turn to the one with the highest craft DC, Vengeful Gaze of God. I deal 300d6 (avg 1050) and take 200d6 (avg 700). Eep!

Sure I deal a good deal of damage, but looking at MutliSpell(mostly the part about taking it multiple times...) and Automatically Quickened Disintegrates I was wondering why I was bothering with epic spells. So, I turn to another cool looking spell.

Dragon Strike! Woot! This has gotta be Epic Magic at its best. Then I read on. Its a ritual spell. Cool! I have to go get eleven high level NPC's to help me cast it, must be powerful! At the low low price *sarcasm* of 18K xp (+2K / casting for every caster), and almost half a million gold I can summon *drumroll*.

10 Adult Red Dragons.

...What!?

Heres the stats on Chromatic Dragons. http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/monsters/CHROMATIC_DRAGONS.html They have 253 HP. The make attacks at +31 for 2d6+11 (2 claws). They are challenge rating FIFTEEN.

Theres alot of similar spells out there. (ie- Summon Behemoth might be cool in a Final Fantasy game, but its just silly to be an epic mage and call upon a 21HD Eagle.)

So thats why I made some of my own spells.

For example, the ultimate spell for any Epic Mage/Villian to have on him at all times...

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Thought you could get away with it, huh?
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 63
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minute
Range: 12,000 ft
Target: One creature, or up to a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter
Duration: Contingent until expended, then instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude Half
Spell Resistance: Yes

To Develop: 567,000 gp; 12 days; 22,680 XP. Seed: destroy (+29 DC). Factor: activates when subject is attacked (+25 DC), 20 extra damage die (+40 DC) increased casting time to 10 minutes (-20 DC), three additional participants contributing 9th level spell slots (-51 DC), increase damage die type to d20 (+40 DC).

This spell, upon being cast, waits until the target is attacked and dealt damage, then releases itself onto the attacker. It deals 40d20 nonelemental damage (average 420, 210 on a successful saving throw), and does all the other things the destroy seed usually does (ie- disintegrates things).
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See? Spells that DONT kill the caster are a nice thing. But what if you changed it to a contigency of you pointing your finger at someone and saying "Bang", WITH backlash damage? See how powerful things are when you A) explore your options and B) plot out what the most effective die type is.

 

[Nail]

I, too, wondered why the epic spells listed were so...err...sub-optimal. Surely they can't believe players using Epic Levels are newbies?

10 adult red dragons. Whoopty-dee.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

I think they were written to give a varied idea of what Epic spells could do, but to also not be overpowering. They are there to provide a reference point for a DM who hears " I want to make a spell that summons ten Balor...". WoTC new that people would min/max them on their own.

Also, I would have to say that Epic Warding isn't to bad.

 

[Kalanyr]

Heh, the NPCs you need to cast Dragon Strike are more powerful than the Dragons you get combined. Its like sending the summon monster IX critters into melee combat and watching them die.

 

[Nail]

OT: Actually, the (non-epic) Summon Monster spells aren't bad. They're just "often used badly". Big difference.

If you expect your SM spells to be the front-line meat-shields, you're not using them well.

 

[Kalanyr]

Yeah I know, but the way the spells are written suggests they are meat shields but the high level ones aren't they are all supernatural/(Sp) abusable, it'd be nice if there were a couple of meat shield options at each spell level.

 

[Mythmere]

I, too, wondered why the epic spells listed were so...err...sub-optimal. Surely they can't believe players using Epic Levels are newbies?

10 adult red dragons. Whoopty-dee.

Tatterdemalion's Migrating Manse
Seed: base seed: Transport Transmutation [Teleportation]
Spellcraft DC: 27 + 4 (interplanar) +4 (unwilling creatures) + 15 (change from personal to 4 ten-foot cubes) + 36 (increase area by 100% 9 times) - 20 (increase casting time by 10 minutes) -10 (backlash 10 d6) -27 (ritual casting requiring three additional casters to contribute a 5th level spell slot)= 49+1+36-20-10 =29
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Range: Touch
Target or effect: all beings and structures within the spell's area of effect
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: No

This spell sends all beings, structures, and land within the spell's area of effect through the astral plane to a place designated by the caster. The spell is intended (but not required) to be cast so as to call ten feet of earth and foundation deep, one hundred and fifty feet of air, towers, and buildings high, in a square area of one hundred feet by one hundred ten feet, but can move up to 2048 ten foot cubes. The spell causes a backlash of 10d6 points of damage to the caster.
To develop: 261,000 gp; 13 days to develop; 10,440 xps.

 

[Paragon]

hey chris a little OT but where are you from? i used to game with a guy named chris parker is all

 

[Chris Parker]

Ahhh!! Sorry.

Went on vacation the morning immediatly after I had posted this! Needless to say I didnt have a chance to update during that time.

Also, I have a point to make... How ridiculously high can you get skills at epic?

Off the top of my head (I dont own any D&D books, or any gaming books) you can get Luck, Profane/Sacred, and Insight bonuses to skills. Might be competency, as well. Of course, only the Luck formula is given as per pricing. So... just assume that the other ones cost (bonus*bonus*50) base (for 2.5 times the normal 20). DM usually caps nonepic at 20. So lets assume the Epic "cap" is 40.

(40*40*50*10)*3 types of bonuses.

2.4Mil. Hmmm. Not THAT much to an epic character. Dont forget its an exponential equation... a bonus of 30 across the board gives you 1.35Mil cost. Not bad. And of course all 20's is spare change at that point.

How high can you get those skills?

[~30 ranks]+[~20 prime ability modifier]+[120=40*3]

170 spellcraft? Hmm. Think of all the nasty things you could do then! Summon PsuedoNatural Monster of Legend Force Dragons!!!

But... (as comical as that is) you really must remember the winner of the Most Insanely Broken Class Award... The Iajitsu Master.

Lets assume a 170 Iajitsu skill, with a charisma of 50 (not that unrealistic, I havent put EVERYTHING into Charisma... but close, and I have nearly that much at 27 (ECL 28)). Straight up ignoring weapon damage, and damage from specialization feats, and str, etc etc, only counting Iajitsu damage...

Lets call it 35d6. (fudging on the numbers, but I dont have a book with me, so...)

But lets not forget they add thier charisma mod onto each extra damage die!

35d6 (122.5=35*(6+1)/2) + 700 (35*20)

That looks sickeningly like 822 AVERAGE damage.

Hm. What would happen if an Iajitsu Master went into the Dervish prestige class? (It might require a few DM rulings, but the "I am a dancing whirlwind of death!" does kinda fit in with grandmasters of swordsmanship)...

822 average damage + echoes of the edge + double the number of attacks in a round (lets not forget dual wielding and hasted).

Perfect two weapon fighting, 4 attacks with each weapon. 8 attacks. Double that (godbless you Dervish). 16 attacks. 1 extra from haste. One extra from Echoes of the Edge.

Hmmm...... Thats an epic character that can get 18 attacks / rnd. Granted, not every round, but... its something that is quite memorable.

Can you guys think of any way to get more attacks / rnd, or higher skills?

(Hm, parently I ran off topic again. Oh well, heres an epic spell idea thats sure to be amusing... The compel seed looks fun. So does the contigency trigger. With a 170 spellcraft DC set up a contigency spell that goes off whenever you say the specific word. Its duration is permanent. Its DC is as high as possible. It has some AoE or another affect. Anyone who fails, instantly follows you/kills themselves/becomes evil/kills party members at most inconveniant time, etc etc)

(Btw, Alabama)

 

[Inari]

Sorry Parker, but despite how epic that iaijutsu focused character looks, he can't even come close. Unless the DM decides to allow the character to be purposly broken and makes a funky house rule, unless he does that, the maximum extra damage you can get is +9d6 with a roll of 50+. WotC probably saw your idea coming, as did I when I first thought of the skill. Thankfully the editors there have common sense

Despite it only being +9d6, with your uber-munchkin dervish multiclass, 4 attacks per weapon (x2), and all those bonus feats the character would have by now (those not spent on improving the character's iaijutsu focus and initiative), it would be a formidable foe indeed for that very first round of combat. After that, it'd probably just be another bloke swinging a sword.

But please continue with the epic level spellcasting discussion. It's giving me lots of good ideas ^^