D&D 5E How complex do you like your character creation process?

[TwoSix]

I don't think it's unexplored - I think that it was explored quite a bit in the 80s with things like skills where using them gave you a chance to increase and oD&D where a lot of your power came from treasure. I think that what happened was that in the tabletop roleplaying arena player-facing growth won. There are, however, plenty of modern computer games where randomised growth is used (one of my favourites being Hades where your boons are mostly random; Hades is an amazing game) and it's what e.g. deckbuilders and roguelikes are based on. It's simply that randomised growth works a lot better when you've only got to stick with this build for about an hour rather than an entire campaign.

Yea, bringing back more roguelike elements or MOBA-type build elements is a direction I'd like to see D&D go (back) in. Simple starting characters with just a few abilities, and growth is driven by acquisition.

 

[Lanefan]

More feats are needed is what I'm saying.

And stop calling them 'optional'.

Except in 5e they explicitly are optional, are they not?

 

[DND_Reborn]

You mean you entirely ignored which clan you were a part of and which disciplines they gave you an affinity for?

Clan =/= class.

And despite your rant you never answered my question:

Why do you feel you NEED mechanical impact for character growth?

Unless you count this:

things that make my experience better and make things both easier and more fun

Because by comparison the ideas you cite from other systems hardly make character creation "easier", and I still don't see how those things impact your character later on.

And that is entirely down to your misconceptions. Levels are not organic. People in the real world do not have levels. They do however have abilities.

No, it is based on your responses. Levels are a mechanic, so no they are not organic. But you want mechanics to make your growth feel mechanic. And we aren't discussing people in the real world, as you are well aware of considering our other conversations. Even with levels, PCs in D&D have abilities as well.

Indeed. You could have chosen to start with an Int of 8 - and then gained +2 INT for all your first three ASIs. Except you didn't do that because it would have been ridiculous. You also could bounce around in a dungeon on a pogo stick - but that would be a suicidal choice. You can make bad choices that no one sensible would take.

Now you are being ridiculous to suggest such ill-uses of ASI/feats. There are plenty of feats and ASI options which would be completely different for the two builds without promoting non-sensical choices.

So you're growing completely on rails for more than half your development.

Only if you solely are relying on your mechanical choices and benefits to define how your character grows.

If a feat can make a class obsolete then unless the feat is utterly ridiculous then the problem is with the class.

I agree for the most part, which is why taking metamagic away from solely sorcerers or invocations away from solely warlocks is bad design IMO.

Have you ever tried any other way?

And returning to this, I've tried other game systems so yes, I have, and given your (and others) descriptions of such systems, no they don't sound good to me. I haven't tried squid, but I am pretty sure I wouldn't like it considering my dislike for seafood in general.

Or are you looking at a newfangled invention and saying that things were good enough in your day? Yes you can use landlines all the time - but I'll keep my smartphones, thank you. And point out that land lines have numerous disadvantages.

LOL keep your smartphone. I don't own one. And the cell phone I have I keep only for travel in case of emergencies. Yes, I have my landline still and prefer it because I don't want to be attached to a smartphone as I see nearly everyone doing. I have seen family members ignoring their children because they are too busy on their smartphone...

But I will save my rant on smartphones for a more appropriate place--they are one of the worst pieces of technology ever IMO.

 

[TwoSix]

LOL keep your smartphone. I don't own one. And the cell phone I have I keep only for travel in case of emergencies. Yes, I have my landline still and prefer it because I don't want to be attached to a smartphone as I see nearly everyone doing. I have seen family members ignoring their children because they are too busy on their smartphone...

But I will save my rant on smartphones for a more appropriate place--they are one of the worst pieces of technology ever IMO.

Apologies, sir, in my youthful exuberance I trespassed upon your lawn and shall depart posthaste, as you have instructed.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Gotta be honest, you're missing out. Collaborative character creation is super fun. Beyond the Wall is the best example if you want to stay in the D&D-like area.

Sure, collaborative character creation is great. 90% of the games I've played in everyone meets to make their characters together and we have a lot of fun. People discuss their character concepts, race and class choices, as well as what the DM's input on the game world, etc.

My point was going through a system such as the ones described seems overly constrictive and not fun.

I'll check out Beyond the Wall and let you know. You mean this, right? Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures, a zero-prep OSR roleplaying game you can play in an afternoon

Otherwise, I think people who want D&D but with skill-builds, etc. should look at the document I attached in the thread:

D&D 5E - How complex do you like your character creation process?

I had to vote for #3 because we always go back to it. When I was a kid I loved AD&D's Unearthed Arcana with all of the little extra stuff, plus using the DMG's NPC tables for character traits. In those days we had time to spend all weekend creating kewl characters. Now I like to spend my time...

www.enworld.org

 

[DND_Reborn]

Apologies, sir, in my youthful exuberance I trespassed upon your lawn and shall depart posthaste, as you have instructed.

You HAD BETTER stay off my lawn!

 

[TwoSix]

Otherwise, I think people who want D&D but with skill-builds, etc. should look at the document I attached in the thread:

D&D 5E - How complex do you like your character creation process?

I had to vote for #3 because we always go back to it. When I was a kid I loved AD&D's Unearthed Arcana with all of the little extra stuff, plus using the DMG's NPC tables for character traits. In those days we had time to spend all weekend creating kewl characters. Now I like to spend my time...

www.enworld.org

Yea, race, background, and the Adventurer class in that document (all feats, all the time) would actually be a super-fun way to play.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And despite your rant you never answered my question:

I did answer your question.

I pointed out that I do not NEED them. They just make things vastly better. And then asked why you NEED more than one knife. Your question was a bad one and was the wrong question. I find them useful and desirable in the way I find adding spices to food useful and desirable.

Unless you count this:

Because by comparison the ideas you cite from other systems hardly make character creation "easier", and I still don't see how those things impact your character later on.

And yet character creation in the games I have listed is easier and simpler than it is in D&D if you take the total package.

Only if you solely are relying on your mechanical choices and benefits to define how your character grows.

I'm sorry, but this comes close to being an ad-hominem attack. Mechanical choices and benefits are used in addition to rather instead of relying on fluff to carry the entire thing. And each enhances the other.

I agree for the most part, which is why taking metamagic away from solely sorcerers or invocations away from solely warlocks is bad design IMO.

That's your opinion.

Warlocks in particular are unique enough that sharing invocations is more than fine. There's a lot that makes Warlocks unique including their pact boons and their casting mechanics being only top level spells. And Eldritch Blast plus Agonizing Blast (incidentally you can't take Agonizing Blast with the feat without also multiclassing into warlock because it has a prerequisite). Anyone else can repeatedly take the feat and will not look or play like a warlock.

On the other hand there are some warlock Invocations that are great for other builds. Misty Visions would be the obvious one; the ability to cast Silent Image at will. If an illusionist wizard wants to take it then they will be much better at their themes because they can throw large illusions at will. All you are doing here is cutting down good builds.

As for the sorcerer, remember that I said that any class that could be rendered obsolete by a feat is bad design? Well guess what? The base sorcerer is badly designed with cripplingly few spells known when spellcasting is meant to be their main thing. At least the PHB sorcerer is badly designed. On the other hand if you look at the Tasha's subclasses the Aberrant Mind in particular is definitely unique. It's a concealed full spellpoint class and a Psion in all but name. And the clockwork soul is fine.

The Invocation feat is great - and a way of adding some extra stuff (and possibly some warlocking but frequently just some magical abilities) without spending an entire class level.

And returning to this, I've tried other game systems so yes, I have, and given your (and others) descriptions of such systems, no they don't sound good to me. I haven't tried squid, but I am pretty sure I wouldn't like it considering my dislike for seafood in general.

I dislike squid - but wouldn't say that having had a number of fish meant that you had a clue what squid tasted like.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@Neonchameleon, we have been so totally at odds in nearly every aspect of the game I see no point in further discussion. Enjoy your game (and your smartphone ) and I'll enjoy mine (game, that is, and my landline. ).

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yea, bringing back more roguelike elements or MOBA-type build elements is a direction I'd like to see D&D go (back) in. Simple starting characters with just a few abilities, and growth is driven by acquisition.

I don't think I'd want to see D&D go that way tbh but there is game space there. I'd want much shorter games; Japanese style single long sessions would be ideal.