how dare you play evil!

[gillette]

. . . a well played verbal battle can be more interesting and more damaging than a well played physical fight.

I could not have said it better myself!


If I had a nickel for every time someone has come up to me with no reason, no provocation whatsoever and tried to get me to duel, fight, or whatever, I'd buy myself a server. Hey, I love the dynamic of good, evil and neutral characters mingling in someplace like the tavern. My only hope is that those characters have some reason for doing what they do, even if I and my character don't understand it. All too frequently, I feel like I can almost see the player complaining of being bored, angry or whatever and just looking for someone to take it out on.

Sadly, I must admit my roleplaying in settings like the CRT has changed drastically over the last six years or so because of this exact thing. Mostly at the urging of my friends, I no longer just go with the flow of any unknown person's actions or events if I can't see at least some sort of character choice behind it. Believe me, I wish I could, but I've learned that a lot of the players on the site don't have the attention span to deal with events that don't resolve themselves in a few days. They play an evil or callous character, for example, and can't understand why a whole month later, Gillette still hates or avoids them. Hello, people! If you are going to play evil or just rude (yes, I'm guilty, I know), expect consequences! They may not be bowing, scraping or cowering in fear, perhaps none of the 'glory' some who play evil seem to crave, but there will be reactions. At least, I promise you Gill is reacting. You just may have no idea what she's saying and doing to your detriment. Because I prefer to play all those lovely shades of grey between the good and evil. :smirk:

 

[Ssussunriyh]

All too frequently, I feel like I can almost see the player complaining of being bored, angry or whatever and just looking for someone to take it out on.[/B]

I've lost count of the number of times I've witnessed a character (read: player) just sitting around the tavern moaning about how bored they are and wishing mightily that someone would come up and entertain them.

This is interactive roleplaying, not sitting like a lump in front of the television set. If you don't do anything on your own initiative to set the ball rolling, then why should you expect anyone else to do it for you?

I can almost hear the response: "I've tried! But nobody will talk to me!" Then maybe you're using the wrong approach. Or maybe your socialization skills need improving...

Or maybe you're right, and we are all a bunch of snobby jerks, and our exclusive club doesn't accept new members...

 

[Krystal]

I'm really not sure that I can add much to this, but I just wanted to comment on the trading barbs statement.

Part of the fun of trading barbs is seeing how far you can push the other person. Krystal is quite fond of pushing people's buttons sometimes, and seeing just how far they are willing to go in a civilized area. Civilized area, I think, being the key. Realistically, do you think an assassin or evil character would go to a tavern for the express purposes of doing blatant evil? Sure, they might trade barbs, but do you expect it to get to the point of weapons being drawn? Why not, instead, just simply bide your time, and when the other person leaves, follow? That would make more sense, allow for you to find a more secluded area to do your dirty work. Even the dumbest of us (us being a reference to characters) are intelligent enough to want to hide such things.

There is not to much I can offer though in example. I don't tend to play evil characters. Mine tend to linger just on the better side of neutral. I have only played one character that would come remotely close, and he popped in and out for quite some time before doing what he came to do. I really didn't get a chance to develop his backstory, but I can tell you this: what he's done, he felt completely justified in doing. He felt it was justice for people gettting in his way and aiding his target with her deception. Was he evil? Most likely. But he didn't think so.

Keep in mind that good and evil and even neutrality are all in the eye of the beholder. And I think some of the best types of characters of any persuasion are those that feel justified in how they act, whether it be for better or for worse.

People just don't randomly go "You know, I'm gonna go on a rampage today and slaughter as many people as I can."

At least... I hope they don't...

 

[Fenmarel]

Tell me true: would I be treated differently if that were the case and I posted what I did under a name that you are all familiar with? I think not. One might protest and say otherwise, but the idea would remain, and my future role playing sessions would pale in comparison to what they once were.

I can tell you from previous experience that isn't true at all. Some of the people I have had the pleasure of rping with wouldn't have approached me or my characters if they hadn't seen some of the rants or some of the responses I have made to rants.

Alot of us that post on a regular basis are adults or young adults that are mature enough to respect the views of others. I hold great respect for those that can come forward and voice their opinions for all to see. It takes a strong person to voice an unpopular opinion and then roll with the punches.

If some people stop interacting with you because of some post you made voicing your opinion then they weren't worth your time in the first place. Yes there are players like that I won't lie to you. I could give you a good size list of names though it wouldn't be prudent to do so in a forum such as this. Don't be afraid to voice your opinion though on the other hand don't be too proud if your opinion is proven wrong to admit it.

Some of the most fun I ever had on this site was with a player that held totally opposite views on just about everything that I did. We would rant back and forth but when it came down to it we respected each other and our respective roleplaying abilities. Though some of the most hair pulling experiences I have ever had was with a person that I didn't agree with his actions and he didn't agree with mine. You will find there are alot of good no great people that play here from the admins to the player of the blacksmith that can't make a nail straight.

As I've said before if you are having trouble ask some of us that have had successful experiences rping here to get some tips or pointers.

If it sounded like I was bashing you I apologize. The way I word things is a fault of mine. My mind says one thing and my fingers or mouth spray forth the worst possible meaning of what I am thinking.

Jason

 

[Candle]

Havé you not heard of casing the joint/knowing the mark or those who act in haste die in haste. With s'many goodly folk about the tavern if I had evil inclinations I'd probably not want to draw attention to m'self in the slightest.

To be throughly evil in a most evil manner is having the knowing of your target's weaknesses and strengths, their friends and allies, their foes and using them against them. The best way to do this is to watch and listen from afar and near not start baiting them in the open which only achieves forwarning them. As a result the evil protagonist can set the the good folk dilemmas to face when they have to combat them which makes playing good charcaters fun.

---
For those who practice not-doing, everything will fall into place.

When people see things as beautiful, ugliness is created.
When people see things as good, evil is created.

LAO TZU "TAO TE CHING"

 

[Jardel_Karabella]

As a little note... I Jardel has actually gotten more people in the ISRP area stabbed, zapped, slashed, etc by manipulating their enemies into attacking them then he has by doing the dirty work himself. Manipulative evil types are incredibly powerful and dangerous as well as incredibly cool.

I mean just look at some of the great villians of novels... Hannibal Lecter, Saruman, Don Coreleon, etc. All these people wielded their power through their ability to make others dance like puppets on strings.

Never under estimate the potential of a good manipulator. After all, the pen is mightier than the sword.

 

[Candle]

Yes ... he is a prime example of the cultivated intelligent evil type who if physically attacked would probably have a couple of Paladins, Cinderella and the fairy god-parent scampering to his aid all deluded in their belief he is redeemable.

I hate it when that happens but that's the dilemma and the fun of trying.

Jardel has cultivated his redeemabilty- and good folk surely have to give chance to one who could possibly redeem themselves: or they could redeem if only to inflate their own egos.

I'm going completely off topic ...

---
Just as fish remain hidden in deep waters,
it is best to keep weapons out of sight.

The strong and violent will not die a natural death

LAO TZU "TAO TE CHING"

Nope I don't have a clue either

 

[Dragona Nightsky]

As a player of multiple infamous evils, most notably Ilye Sena and Jalil, I figured I would add my two cents on this.

First of all, I agree that yes, sneaky evils are probably better recieved than blatent evils, but I get the general feeling that the opinion is blatent evil shouldn't be played, and that I have to disagree with. Blatent evils are alot harder to play than sneaky, covert evils in their own way because they are not as well recieved and sociable as covert evils, but they can be good characters when properly played. Agreed that when you have a dozen new "I'm the baddest thing in the universe" evils every few days, it starts to get old, but when you get just one blatantly evil person who people can gather together and hate, it can be alot of fun, and bring alot of excitment.

For example, if anyone does remember Sena, she was very blatently and unashamedly evil. One of the best examples of this was the cruel games she played by taunting the friends of her torture victims by delivering pieces of the victims to their friends, or by wearing trophies of her past atrocities, such as when she took the wings from a young gold dragon and had them grafted to her back, or her wearing the stolen amulet she took and twisted with dark magic when she killed Bhryn one time.

Of course, this should not be the only kind of evil. Evil is more than just cruelty and malice and downright not giving a damn about the well being of others. It's more than just being "in your face". It's that creepy feeling that crawls across your skin leaving a trail of goosebumps after a conniver has turned the tables and landed the good paladin in jail for a crime every believes he couldn't possibly have commited...or the realization that you've been duped by the fiend from the pits and just traded away your soul in a binding bargain, or the frustration of knowing that you can't do anything about the murder you witnessed becasue the murderer has blackmail that would ruin your life.

This too is evil, and can be just as, or sometimes more, exciting than blatent evil, however both are valid types of evil. The key is in playing them well. I look back on Sena and see so many things I wish I'd done differently in playing her, but on the flip side I see all the fun that I and other patrons had, and in the end, that's what matters.

So, in closing, and to sum it all up, the keys to good evil, IMHO:

1. Be true to your character while considering others...unfortunate as it seems sometimes, this isn't a novel where we can decide for ourselves what happens to everyone else, but really it's all the better for it because that means ANYTHING can happen...and the possibilities are endless!
2. Keep an open mind, OOC. In my opinion this is one thing that's smothering the development of awesome storylines. Never deviate from your character, of course, but give something or someone new a chance before labelling them/it. Just because your past expirience with evil has been bad doesn't mean every expirience will be so. It just takes finding that right kind of antagonist for your character that has the ability to send chills up your spine after a good confrontation...and it tends to send chills up your spine when it's right
3. Have your limits. EVERY great evil has their flaws and drawbacks. One of Sena's was her sister, Cena, whom she had dragged along with her to join the Shadows, eventually leading to her sister's complete insanity. I think it's key to have flaws and imperfections in a character...it's what makes them unique! And in the case of an evil character with the right role-players it can make the interaction that much more interesting.


Eh...I think that's all for now...please take it in stride. There have been some very good points made here in this topic and I hope people will take them to heart before they set out to play an evil character.

*drops in the two coppers and presses the big red button to post*
~Draggy

 

[Jardel_Karabella]

I agree almost entirely with Draggy... however I do have some concerns with endorsing "blatant evil".The problem with blatant evil in the ISRP setting is that it... breaks the setting. It is generally something best left to novels and tabletop games where the settings can move and shift to the home of evil.

Blatant evil by it's very nature requires the evil doer to have some sort of immunity to the consequences of their actions, usually this is obtained by being either so dangerous and deadly nobody dares to oppose you (ala Bullseye from Daredevil comics) or by being the one who is indisputably incharge of whereever you are (like Strahd in Baravaria from the Ravenloft setting).

In all the ISRP settings the neutral ground effect is critical to allow people the full spectrum of characters (good, evil, neutral, sort of good, kinda evil, members of specialist groups etc) and in order for the neutral ground effect to remain, everyone has to play by the same rules.

Ergo, if someone is to be "blatantly evil" they need to be commiting their blatant evil outside the setting and hence being at least to some degree... subtle. Otherwise it leads to the logic that if they're going to be blatant evil... good should blatantly attack... then it's a whole mess etc.

This is where a lot of folks fall down in my experience, they want to be evil and they want to provide demonstrations of their evil so everyone gets they're evil... so they go and do something evil and try to make up excuses why they shouldn't suffer the consequences.

When dealing with evil you have to be careful as to how you mix and measure. If you're too subtle then it's entirely possible people will never pick up that you're a bad person (maybe that's how you like it... like Keyser Soze from the Usual Suspects) but if you're not subtle enough it turns into a bad joke (not going to mention any names... past or present here).

But, as Draggy stated, the key to playing good evil is to keep your focus not on the evil, but on the characters. Like the good characters you'll have to work out the two most important things: Whys and hows.

Why do they do all these terrible things they do ("They're evil." is never a workable answer) and how do they get away with it? ("The law is bad." "The Wizos won't arrest me." "Because I say so." and "Because we need bad guys." are not workable answers for this one) and then just build on it from there.

All of the best villians in roleplaying and literature are ones who are not evil because they want to be, but rather because they see it as a necessary means/lifestyle to their goals.

Manshoon was not cruel and heartless because he thought it was cool, he was cruel and heartless because he felt power was something you had to take from others, hence he couldnt' afford any sympathy for others.

Strahd, when you break him down, is but a man who is forever denied peace of conscience. He sacrficed everthing to get what he wanted and watched it all turn to ashes, now the thought of anyone having anything joyful without paying for it in blood drives him to sadistic jealousy.

Dracula was a being who stripped of his ability to relate and be loved by people, but given power over the life and death of others in the process. Thus he revels in the joys he can have in his power while longing for something else, forever embittered and tormented.

Not one of these folks ever commits an evil act to be... evil, they do it to further their own ends with no regard for whether it's right or wrong. If they believed that helping an old lady across the street would help them... they'd do it, they'd also hurl said old lady into traffic or push her down a manhole if they thought it'd further their agenda.

Evil characters created in this manner are much more terrifing and sinister for two simple reasons: One, we can relate to them and understand why those terrible things... even if most certainly don't condone what they're doing. And two: It gives them a much more diverse range of actions which will compliment each other and provide contrast.

It's much more shocking to see someone brutally murder one of your friends if only ten minutes ago you saw them giving milk to a stray cat than if ten minutes ago they were ranting about how evil they were.

 

[Dragona Nightsky]

Very good points, Jardel. You're right. It is hard to play a blatently evil character in a setting of 'neutral ground' without breaking the setting per say, and as such they have do to be more covert in their actions, but it can be done all the same. Although, I don't really agree that to be blatently evil requires that you be immune to the consequences. Sena got away with many things, but in the end she died in retribution for the evils she had committed. Not to mention the consequences aren't always easily seen.

But that aside, it is true that a character who might be blatently evil would have to be a little less blatent and a little more covert in a setting such as Juxta or Oerth. I mean a blatently evil character can't run around in the tavern terrorizing the townsfolk of Ford Keep or Juxta City. So perhaps a "wizards-ized" definition of blatent evil is in order.

When I speak of blatent evil, I speak more of the kind of people who are known, and perhaps even feared or hated, because of their actions, sometimes visible, other times merely rumoured. Going waaaaay back, the Redeemers, though they weren't actually evil, are a good example of this. When people saw a Redeemer, they viewed them with caution, fear, or outright hate because of their extremist actions. The same thing was true with the Lemarg for a long while before their decline, and even Helfried and Baalodias' Entourage and the mysterious "Black Hand" as I believe they were called. People who, while they might have been somewhat more covert in their actions while on neutral ground, were still known and feared as evil.

So I guess when I think of covert evil I think more of the people who are evil but come across more as neutral or good, and blatent evil is those people who are evil and, when the opportunity is right, aren't afraid to live up to the label.

Now, admittantly the one problem with this is when the idea of living up to your evil name is taken to such an extreme that it comes across IC and OOC as revolting, for lack of a better word. I think that's where alot of the pessimism has come against playing evil characters. And that's when I refer back to afore mentioned Point number 2

This is a really good discussion, and I hope that maybe this will spark some ideas and thoughts for other people as it's done for me.

*drops in two coppers* ...I'm going to be poor if I keep this up :nonono:...

~Draggy