D&D 5E How difficult should Difficulty be?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Correct, and that is exactly what I am saying. You, however, seem to be arguing that very thing.
I'm not. Something that is nearly impossible to achieve doesn't have to be achievable by every Tom, Dick or Harry that tries it. In fact, it shouldn't be achievable by them. It should take someone who is extraordinary even among heroes to achieve it. DC 30 does that. DC 25 does not. DC 25 makes nothing nearly impossible.

A static 30 is the opposite of nearly impossible changing for anyone who tries it. It's just.......................nearly impossible and only achievable if you have high enough numbers, and even then it's unlikely, because.......................it's nearly impossible.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I really, really don’t. It’s not just a matter of chance, I absolutely lack the physical ability to even compete in any sporting event at anywhere near an Olympic level, let alone win against athletes at that level. It would (and does) take years of highly dedicated training to even have a chance, which is exactly why it’s a nearly impossible feat.
When I was much younger I had world class sprinting speed, and at one point was training to go to Barcelona. My friends nicknamed me Turbo and understood that they had no shot at beating me in a foot race.
 

That was amazingly generous. If a PC in my game was on a world he had never been to and had no connection to, there would be a zero chance of success. You only roll if the outcome is in doubt. I would have simply told him no he doesn't know.
Planar travel is a thing - Example - Raistlin travels to the Forgotten Realms and talks with Elminster about the War of the Lance. Elminster repeats part of this. Someone writes what Elminster says down. Your FR PC reads it. That's how your FR PC knew about some DL events even though he had never been to Krynn.
 

Tallifer

Hero
Hard DCs have to be super hard considering all the spells, tricks and items PCs can muster. But 5e is all about empowering the DM to adjust DCs according to the powergamer quotient of the party. :)
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Planar travel is a thing - Example - Raistlin travels to the Forgotten Realms and talks with Elminster about the War of the Lance. Elminster repeats part of this. Someone writes what Elminster says down. Your FR PC reads it. That's how your FR PC knew about some DL events even though he had never been to Krynn.
The odds of that are just about 0. Elminster doesn't walk around holding seminars on the War of the Lance or talking to low level PCs.
 



James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
No. I just read the D&D products, because those are what is in the game.
Well, trust me, Elminster as written is always expositing to low level characters. In Spellfire, he basically gives a seminar in "how to beat a Wizard in combat", lol.

As for D&D products, there was that season of Encounters where your 1st level characters are on a pub crawl of the Realms, end up in Shadowdale when the Drow attack, and Elminster dragoons your party into serving as a distraction by sending you into the Underdark.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Well, trust me, Elminster as written is always expositing to low level characters. In Spellfire, he basically gives a seminar in "how to beat a Wizard in combat", lol.

As for D&D products, there was that season of Encounters where your 1st level characters are on a pub crawl of the Realms, end up in Shadowdale when the Drow attack, and Elminster dragoons your party into serving as a distraction by sending you into the Underdark.
So basically, because of Elminster everyone should have a chance to know anything?

Even with Elminster traveling around doing that, the odds of a given PC encountering him AND learning that specific piece of information is still next to 0. :p
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
So basically, because of Elminster everyone should have a chance to know anything?

Even with Elminster traveling around doing that, the odds of a given PC encountering him AND learning that specific piece of information is still next to 0. :p
That's what Volo's Guides are for.
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
Or heck, Elminster's Ecologies (though he admits, he only wrote the first book). Here's an excerpt of him talking to a wannabe adventurer about them:

Elminster1.gif

Elminster2.gif
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
So basically, because of Elminster everyone should have a chance to know anything?

Even with Elminster traveling around doing that, the odds of a given PC encountering him AND learning that specific piece of information is still next to 0. :p
A lot of D&D books from 2E especially are presented as in-universe works.

So if your character can read, there's a good chance they know what's in them.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
A lot of D&D books from 2E especially are presented as in-universe works.

So if your character can read, there's a good chance they know what's in them.
This isn't the modern world where books and libraries are common and easy to get to, and where you can find copies of the same books at all of them. It's highly unlikely that your PC has read any given book.
 

Micah Sweet

Legend
This isn't the modern world where books and libraries are common and easy to get to, and where you can find copies of the same books at all of them. It's highly unlikely that your PC has read any given book.
D&D, especially modern D&D, sure seems like a fantasy version of the modern world to me, particularly from the adventurer's point of view.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
D&D, especially modern D&D, sure seems like a fantasy version of the modern world to me, particularly from the adventurer's point of view.
Given that the vast majority of people here in the real world haven't read even a tiny fraction of the books in a modern library, I'm going to say that even if what you say is true, the PCs would still be extraordinarily unlikely to have read any given book. They wouldn't be entitled to a roll to find out something about a personage on another world.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
This isn't the modern world where books and libraries are common and easy to get to, and where you can find copies of the same books at all of them. It's highly unlikely that your PC has read any given book.
They haven't read the seminal works of a man who is provably more awesome and important in-universe than the gods?

Okay. The cleric only has a slim chance of knowing their religion's tenets too.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
They haven't read the seminal works of a man who is provably more awesome and important in-universe than the gods?
Probably not. You can't check out books and bring them home and it's very unlikely that it happened prior to first level. After first level I know what they've done and where they've been.
Okay. The cleric only has a slim chance of knowing their religion's tenets too.
False Equivalences are false.
 


James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
I do want to point out is that the game doesn't really have a system to allow someone to be a specialized scholar in esoteric knowledge other than "can they make a DC whatever Intelligence check"? So if we're trying to debate who has read a copy of "Volo's Guide to X" or "Van Richten's Guide to Y", both written by actual in-universe NPC's and presented as an in-universe resource, what's the barrier you want to apply? Skill proficiency? Expertise? Sage Background?

Because if you're playing a Wizard, you're already a high-Int bookworm who devours the written page like a fat kid looks at a Big Mac. I can point to examples in the game's lore where big brained NPC's do, in fact, interact with (and share their knowledge) with low level nobodies, including adventurers.

Elminster is known to be fairly loquacious and has hobnobbed with Dalamar and Mordenkainen regularly, so yeah, he might be persuaded to drop deep cuts of lore about other worlds and planes.

One can't remain a clueless berk forever, eventually you're going to learn the dark of the planes if you're a cutter, and a blood becomes a Knight of the Cross Trade. All roads lead to Sigil, Prime.
 

ehren37

Legend
I wish we'd go with degrees of training in skills: Proficient, Expert, Master, and Legend. Rather than the numbers going up, you can just do more amazing things on a success. Master athletics lets you multiply weight limits by 5 (x10 if you roll hard success or accept a stage of exhaustion), Legendary x10/20.

Do NOT give higher tier proficiency to casters. Casting (allegedly) takes time to learn. You want master Arcana? Spend a feat or multiclass.

Add in COC/PF2's degrees of success while we're at it. Beating the DC by 10 is a critical success, failing by 10+ is a critical failure.

D&D's skill system is so pitiful as is. They need about 3-4 pages of skill "feats" per skill. 1/3 the PHB is spells, they can cut out half of them to make room for more skill tricks.
 

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