How do you deal with whiny players?
- Thread starter SuperFlyTNT
- Start date
DarrenGMiller
First Post
Tewligan said:
There's a movie in there somewhere.
DM
Whiny players can certainly be a problem. But, it's important to make sure you aren't contributing to that problem. As mentioned above, it's always a good thing to make sure you're not doing something wrong as a DM. And it's just as important to not retaliate against that player, since you'll only be justifying their feelings of persecution.
A year or so ago, I was running a game that had gone much later than I had originally planned. It was about 3 o'clock in the morning and we were just about to begin a major land battle. I was evaluating some mass combat rules for 3E and just wanted to run a straightforward combat without anything bizarre. I told that players that once their army reached the field of battle, I'd give them some time to see the layout and strategize. When they arrived, I showed them the enemy forces arrayed at the other end of the field and told them that I'd give them some time to come up with a quick battle plan before we started.
At that point, my whiny player lamented that they had wanted to scout the field before they arrived there. Nobody had mentioned anything to me about scrying or sending scouts, so I said, "No, you didn't say that to me." The player continued to push, saying that it was unfair that they would have no chance to ambush the enemy. I explained that I wanted to run a straightforward combat and that there really wasn't any need for worry, since I didn't want to overtax my understanding of the mass combat rules. I explained that I had promised to draw out the battlefield on the battlemat so they could see it, and then give them about 30 minutes or so to come up with a plan.
"You're wrong! And everybody here thinks you're wrong! You're not fair," came the reply. It was 3 A.M., I was tired, the game had gone hours longer than I had planned, and the battle hadn't even started, yet. His words rung in my ears. My blood boiled. My fists clenched. One of the other players jumped up and shouted, "Hey, now! *I* never said you're wrong!" A quick glance revealed that nobody else wanted to share the whiny player's "concern" for their well-being.
I quickly formulated 100 different ways for the whiny player's character to die. (1) Cardiac arrest, (2) an unseen red dragon on the field that was only interested in his character, (3) the whole enemy army focusing only on him, ... (100) the Moon falls out of orbit and smashes him to flinders before bouncing harmlessly back up into orbit again. You get the idea.
Then, I sat back down in my chair, pushed back from the table, and took 3 really big breaths. Yeah, that's better. OK. I didn't explain to the players that I really wanted a simple, simple, *simple* mass battle so I could evaluate the new game mechanics. I knew that this was a party that loved to over-plan everything. It was a miscommunication. It was as much my fault as it was theirs. Mister Whinypants -- even though he had completely failed at his Diplomacy check -- was right, in a way. And it really didn't matter that much.
Ultimately, I politely stated that reconnaissance was unnecessary as I wanted something simple. I explained that what they saw was what they got, and there wouldn't be any monkey-business on the part of the enemy force. I explained that I just wanted to test the rules and have some fun. Then I gave them 30 minutes to plan while I took a nap.
That whiny player sometimes makes me want to throttle him. He's trouble. And I often can't stand his complaining. But, in that instance, it wasn't all his fault, and I had to admit that. That PC is still alive, and is doing fine, but we've established that moment in time as a joke within our group: "You're wrong, and everybody thinks you're wrong!"
I've also started a new campaign with a smaller set of players from that original group. The whiny player was not invited to play in this new game, and it's been better because of that. If you can't play without this player, try to see his point of view. Don't necessarily give in to him. Just try to see it as he does. Then, if possible, tell him (out of character, if need be) that when his character whines, complains to, and threatens NPCs, they'll have the same reaction he would if someone whined to him. Remind him that part of being a heroic character is dealing with all kinds of problems, from the BBEG actually stealing the artifact to the ship leaving the dock without all of its passengers.
Ultimately, look forward to the fact that someday, you probably won't have to game with him anymore!
A year or so ago, I was running a game that had gone much later than I had originally planned. It was about 3 o'clock in the morning and we were just about to begin a major land battle. I was evaluating some mass combat rules for 3E and just wanted to run a straightforward combat without anything bizarre. I told that players that once their army reached the field of battle, I'd give them some time to see the layout and strategize. When they arrived, I showed them the enemy forces arrayed at the other end of the field and told them that I'd give them some time to come up with a quick battle plan before we started.
At that point, my whiny player lamented that they had wanted to scout the field before they arrived there. Nobody had mentioned anything to me about scrying or sending scouts, so I said, "No, you didn't say that to me." The player continued to push, saying that it was unfair that they would have no chance to ambush the enemy. I explained that I wanted to run a straightforward combat and that there really wasn't any need for worry, since I didn't want to overtax my understanding of the mass combat rules. I explained that I had promised to draw out the battlefield on the battlemat so they could see it, and then give them about 30 minutes or so to come up with a plan.
"You're wrong! And everybody here thinks you're wrong! You're not fair," came the reply. It was 3 A.M., I was tired, the game had gone hours longer than I had planned, and the battle hadn't even started, yet. His words rung in my ears. My blood boiled. My fists clenched. One of the other players jumped up and shouted, "Hey, now! *I* never said you're wrong!" A quick glance revealed that nobody else wanted to share the whiny player's "concern" for their well-being.
I quickly formulated 100 different ways for the whiny player's character to die. (1) Cardiac arrest, (2) an unseen red dragon on the field that was only interested in his character, (3) the whole enemy army focusing only on him, ... (100) the Moon falls out of orbit and smashes him to flinders before bouncing harmlessly back up into orbit again. You get the idea.
Then, I sat back down in my chair, pushed back from the table, and took 3 really big breaths. Yeah, that's better. OK. I didn't explain to the players that I really wanted a simple, simple, *simple* mass battle so I could evaluate the new game mechanics. I knew that this was a party that loved to over-plan everything. It was a miscommunication. It was as much my fault as it was theirs. Mister Whinypants -- even though he had completely failed at his Diplomacy check -- was right, in a way. And it really didn't matter that much.
Ultimately, I politely stated that reconnaissance was unnecessary as I wanted something simple. I explained that what they saw was what they got, and there wouldn't be any monkey-business on the part of the enemy force. I explained that I just wanted to test the rules and have some fun. Then I gave them 30 minutes to plan while I took a nap.
That whiny player sometimes makes me want to throttle him. He's trouble. And I often can't stand his complaining. But, in that instance, it wasn't all his fault, and I had to admit that. That PC is still alive, and is doing fine, but we've established that moment in time as a joke within our group: "You're wrong, and everybody thinks you're wrong!"
I've also started a new campaign with a smaller set of players from that original group. The whiny player was not invited to play in this new game, and it's been better because of that. If you can't play without this player, try to see his point of view. Don't necessarily give in to him. Just try to see it as he does. Then, if possible, tell him (out of character, if need be) that when his character whines, complains to, and threatens NPCs, they'll have the same reaction he would if someone whined to him. Remind him that part of being a heroic character is dealing with all kinds of problems, from the BBEG actually stealing the artifact to the ship leaving the dock without all of its passengers.
Ultimately, look forward to the fact that someday, you probably won't have to game with him anymore!
SuperFlyTNT
First Post
Castellan said:Whiny players can certainly be a problem.
Ultimately, look forward to the fact that someday, you probably won't have to game with him anymore!
Good story... yeah I've tried talking to him he just gets real defensive. It's sad to cuz everyone pretty much disagrees with this guy. I lost it too and yelled at everyone for not buying players hand books and reading them. In a group of 7 (me included) there are only three players hand books floating around. It really irks me.
DethStryke
Explorer
I've been playing for number of years, around 15 now, and that was through High School and into adulthood. As it has been mentioned above, there are fewer choices with who you can game with when you're under 21. Heck, having a car makes the difference. So you end up dealing with a lot more crap than you will when you're older.
In my opinion, there are different types of games and styles, and all of them are good in their own way. For optimum performance, you should only game with people who share your views on how a game should be. I'm not a fan of whiners, rules lawyers, lazy lay-abouts, complainers and those who refuse to learn the rules despite showing up every game. If you need to be told which die to roll for an attack every time for over a year, something is very wrong. I constantly solicit feedback and beg for constructive criticism, which I’ve gotten good at taking without being all hurt and pissy about.
However, that kind of casual gaming and the like are all valid ways to enjoy yourself. Just because I’m neurotic and enjoy huge amounts of depth in games doesn’t mean every game should be that way. The name of the game is enjoyment. I don't enjoy those styles, so I choose the people I game with carefully. Otherwise, I don't enjoy myself and what's the point of playing otherwise? Trying to mix oil and water, however, is equally bad. I have found that being friends outside of the game table with the problem player leads to a majority of those “this player is (insert bad gamer stereotype here) and my group can’t cope!” situations.
To illustrate my point, below are two fundamental examples and how I remedied the situations:
Style Example:
I have a very good friend of mine that I introduced D&D to. She enjoys role-playing and constantly begs me to run games for her to play in. She's played in a couple campaigns with other groups which were less than stellar, in her opinion. However, she doesn't get very enthused by Fantasy settings in the first place. It just isn't her cup of tea. So when playing D&D, she's not enthusiastic about anything going on. She would goof off the entire game and have to be called to pay attention then repeat everything said so she could hear it. She doesn't know any of the rules and has to ask what dice to roll for attacks after years of playing still. Gah!
For my sanity, I actually did not invite her to my D&D game after a while because I was interested in taking the game in directions that she was not interested in (more depth, more story lines and the like). I choose the players for their interest in what I'm doing with the game, and that way everyone involved will enjoy themselves. She was not enjoying herself but was playing because she didn't want to hurt my feelings by not coming. Not including her in that game was the right move, but I also suggested that she find a group that played a setting that she likes.
She LOVES star wars. So, when I finally ran a Star Wars game, she was the top of the list to invite. Her interest alone compelled her to read the handbook, learn about the game dynamics, focus and not goof off as much as she was before by a long shot. Basically, it was night and day. If you like what you are doing, you are more likely to be a good player. She is now one of the best players at the table and we are all happier in this situation. Bottom line is that interest in the game at hand can really be the reason they don’t respond well. Maybe they are not interested in the setting. Getting a person set up in a game they like can change a bad player into a good one very easily.
Personal Example:
Another friend of mind has been playing D&D for around 30 years and is VERY into RPGs of all kinds. Like many here, he has row after row of game books stretching back to the basic D&D box sets. He is a decent DM, though a bit static and inflexible… basically he over-prepares and cannot handle ANYTHING outside of his pre-made format. Still, for your basic dungeon crawl or a horror theme, I enjoy the odd game at his table as long as I leave some of my creativity and ability to think outside the box at home (Hey, sometimes not having to think a lot is fun. That’s why I own a TV as well.)
As a player he is the most headstrong, opinionated, whiny rules lawyer I’ve had the displeasure to meet and game with. On more than one occasion I’ve seen him have temper tantrums (he’s almost 40, mind you) that have culminated in him actually throwing the character sheet (or ripping it up) and storming out of the house. I refuse to run any game with him in it, however another mutual friend (and childhood friend of the one in question) tried to give him the benefit of the doubt a number of times.
Over 5 years of times.
Every game that people have played with him in any setting has always led the rest of the players to hate him and band together against his character. He ALWAYS has to be the center of attention and the leader of any party. He doesn’t notice anything outside of his tunnel vision, be it details the DM mentions blatantly or any input from the other players. He will constantly call people or their actions stupid, and speaks in a very condescending tone to anyone at the table. He becomes the constant butt of the other player’s jokes, which he doesn’t realize due to the afore-mentioned tunnel vision and lack of attention. In short, he is every DM’s nightmare player. We tried being nice, we tried ranting at him, we tried explaining in every way possible how his attitude and behavior was not welcome and tried to meet him in the middle before outright demanding that he knock that crap off.
His basic response has been between either “I’m the way I am, so sorry, but that’s what you get” to “ok, I’ll try” which makes the next session better before he slips back to his old ways before two more sessions pass. We have now a long standing agreement to never tell him about any game we’re in and not invite him to anything we do. So essentially, the only games he knows about are the ones he runs himself.
In this example, he is the way he is. Outside of the game he can still be annoying, but not anything like he is at the game table. So everyone chooses to just remove him from the game table. Though it will probably cause a scene if he ever finds out about the fact that for years now we have hid all these games from him, but since he has that super tunnel vision and inability to pick things up, I don’t see it happening. With this type of player, nothing is going to change him so you just either put up with the crap or remove him from the group. There is no middle ground. Personally, I would tell him outright that I don’t want to game with him. If they are not mature enough to leave it at the table, then that person is probably creating more drama in your life than anyone really needs and perhaps severing your acquaintance is best anyway.
In my opinion, there are different types of games and styles, and all of them are good in their own way. For optimum performance, you should only game with people who share your views on how a game should be. I'm not a fan of whiners, rules lawyers, lazy lay-abouts, complainers and those who refuse to learn the rules despite showing up every game. If you need to be told which die to roll for an attack every time for over a year, something is very wrong. I constantly solicit feedback and beg for constructive criticism, which I’ve gotten good at taking without being all hurt and pissy about.
However, that kind of casual gaming and the like are all valid ways to enjoy yourself. Just because I’m neurotic and enjoy huge amounts of depth in games doesn’t mean every game should be that way. The name of the game is enjoyment. I don't enjoy those styles, so I choose the people I game with carefully. Otherwise, I don't enjoy myself and what's the point of playing otherwise? Trying to mix oil and water, however, is equally bad. I have found that being friends outside of the game table with the problem player leads to a majority of those “this player is (insert bad gamer stereotype here) and my group can’t cope!” situations.
To illustrate my point, below are two fundamental examples and how I remedied the situations:
Style Example:
I have a very good friend of mine that I introduced D&D to. She enjoys role-playing and constantly begs me to run games for her to play in. She's played in a couple campaigns with other groups which were less than stellar, in her opinion. However, she doesn't get very enthused by Fantasy settings in the first place. It just isn't her cup of tea. So when playing D&D, she's not enthusiastic about anything going on. She would goof off the entire game and have to be called to pay attention then repeat everything said so she could hear it. She doesn't know any of the rules and has to ask what dice to roll for attacks after years of playing still. Gah!
For my sanity, I actually did not invite her to my D&D game after a while because I was interested in taking the game in directions that she was not interested in (more depth, more story lines and the like). I choose the players for their interest in what I'm doing with the game, and that way everyone involved will enjoy themselves. She was not enjoying herself but was playing because she didn't want to hurt my feelings by not coming. Not including her in that game was the right move, but I also suggested that she find a group that played a setting that she likes.
She LOVES star wars. So, when I finally ran a Star Wars game, she was the top of the list to invite. Her interest alone compelled her to read the handbook, learn about the game dynamics, focus and not goof off as much as she was before by a long shot. Basically, it was night and day. If you like what you are doing, you are more likely to be a good player. She is now one of the best players at the table and we are all happier in this situation. Bottom line is that interest in the game at hand can really be the reason they don’t respond well. Maybe they are not interested in the setting. Getting a person set up in a game they like can change a bad player into a good one very easily.
Personal Example:
Another friend of mind has been playing D&D for around 30 years and is VERY into RPGs of all kinds. Like many here, he has row after row of game books stretching back to the basic D&D box sets. He is a decent DM, though a bit static and inflexible… basically he over-prepares and cannot handle ANYTHING outside of his pre-made format. Still, for your basic dungeon crawl or a horror theme, I enjoy the odd game at his table as long as I leave some of my creativity and ability to think outside the box at home (Hey, sometimes not having to think a lot is fun. That’s why I own a TV as well.)
As a player he is the most headstrong, opinionated, whiny rules lawyer I’ve had the displeasure to meet and game with. On more than one occasion I’ve seen him have temper tantrums (he’s almost 40, mind you) that have culminated in him actually throwing the character sheet (or ripping it up) and storming out of the house. I refuse to run any game with him in it, however another mutual friend (and childhood friend of the one in question) tried to give him the benefit of the doubt a number of times.
Over 5 years of times.
Every game that people have played with him in any setting has always led the rest of the players to hate him and band together against his character. He ALWAYS has to be the center of attention and the leader of any party. He doesn’t notice anything outside of his tunnel vision, be it details the DM mentions blatantly or any input from the other players. He will constantly call people or their actions stupid, and speaks in a very condescending tone to anyone at the table. He becomes the constant butt of the other player’s jokes, which he doesn’t realize due to the afore-mentioned tunnel vision and lack of attention. In short, he is every DM’s nightmare player. We tried being nice, we tried ranting at him, we tried explaining in every way possible how his attitude and behavior was not welcome and tried to meet him in the middle before outright demanding that he knock that crap off.
His basic response has been between either “I’m the way I am, so sorry, but that’s what you get” to “ok, I’ll try” which makes the next session better before he slips back to his old ways before two more sessions pass. We have now a long standing agreement to never tell him about any game we’re in and not invite him to anything we do. So essentially, the only games he knows about are the ones he runs himself.
In this example, he is the way he is. Outside of the game he can still be annoying, but not anything like he is at the game table. So everyone chooses to just remove him from the game table. Though it will probably cause a scene if he ever finds out about the fact that for years now we have hid all these games from him, but since he has that super tunnel vision and inability to pick things up, I don’t see it happening. With this type of player, nothing is going to change him so you just either put up with the crap or remove him from the group. There is no middle ground. Personally, I would tell him outright that I don’t want to game with him. If they are not mature enough to leave it at the table, then that person is probably creating more drama in your life than anyone really needs and perhaps severing your acquaintance is best anyway.
SuperFlyTNT
First Post
This guy has all the unredeeming qualities mentioned above. I've been DMing for about ayear now. This guy just doesnt want to learn the rules or anything. You've made up my mind, I'll give him one more shot and then its the boot. Thanks for your imput.
Chimera
First Post
fusangite said:
Said in response, with a smile on face and eyes;
"There's the door. You're always welcome to leave if you don't like the game."
Said in the invite for the next session;
"Dude, I don't know if you want to come or not, because this time you're going to need to roll an 18."
That being said...
Listen to the whining the first time, guage whether it's justified or not. Ignore it as much as possible after that unless it's eating into play time or making other people (including yourself) unhappy, at which time it becomes necessary to tell the person (politely at first, less so as you have to repeat yourself) that you don't want to hear it.
Last edited:
DethStryke
Explorer
you're welcome. 
The thought process I had about the last example was that his behavior was making the game not enjoyable for everyone. In this case, the needs of many outweigh the needs of the few. The person obviously isn't mature enough to not spoil everyone's time, so they don't deserve the respect to be kept in the game. The best way, imho, to figure out what to do is if there is a session that the person in question is not there and you all have a great time. Then you know that removing them is a valid solution.
The thought process I had about the last example was that his behavior was making the game not enjoyable for everyone. In this case, the needs of many outweigh the needs of the few. The person obviously isn't mature enough to not spoil everyone's time, so they don't deserve the respect to be kept in the game. The best way, imho, to figure out what to do is if there is a session that the person in question is not there and you all have a great time. Then you know that removing them is a valid solution.
Templetroll
Explorer
SuperFlyTNT said:
I'd have congratulated him for good roleplaying even when it came obviously close to getting him tossed off the airship without a parachute. He actually wasn't roleplaying but by freely misinterpreting his whining as roleplaying you cut the value of his whining. He didnt want his character to be a whiner, he wants to be the whiner and now you're not letting him!
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