How do you determine a "Real Bad Dungeon Master"
- Thread starter palleomortis
- Start date
Not to hijack the thread, but can someone explain to me exactly what Railroading means? It seems like there are two meanings - the first one where the DM always has side adventures to keep you away from the main plot, and the second one that keeps you entirely on the main plot and doesn't let you focus on anything else?
Is the second such a bad thing? I mean, characters gets to solve a mystery, find out who's the bad guy behind everything and go out and kill him. By the second definition, that's a predetermined plot and there's no way to do anything other than just that - solve mystery, find out who bad guy is, find bad guy, kill bad guy. Isn't that what most adventures are like?
Pinotage
Is the second such a bad thing? I mean, characters gets to solve a mystery, find out who's the bad guy behind everything and go out and kill him. By the second definition, that's a predetermined plot and there's no way to do anything other than just that - solve mystery, find out who bad guy is, find bad guy, kill bad guy. Isn't that what most adventures are like?
Pinotage
Aust Diamondew
First Post
TheAuldGrump said:
I've one happened to a game I was playing in once lately. We called off the session and told the DM not to do it again cause it sucked. Though in the past I have seen a GM run his game normally while he was messed up but he's a guy with alot of self control.'
I agree with pretty much everything everyone has said about crappy DMs.
Henry
Autoexreginated
Pinotage said:
Railroading is not really descriptive of your first example, and is more descriptive of the second answer. Railroading in small amounts isn't bad, per se, as long as the group enjoys it. However, true railroading is when your choices as a character make little difference, and the plot unfolds in the manner the DM wants whether you act or not. The ideal plot (to me) is what happens if the players DO NOT interfere. In other words, there should be consequences for inaction or failure, but enough clues should be in place where players can pick up on a plot element. If even the illusion of free will and consequence is gone, the game for me is no fun.
It's like DM's who refuse to kill off PC's even when players perform stupid actions. If you fall on your own sword, and the DM comes up with a silly reason why you live (like the hero's mother replaced it with a collapsible sword the night before) that's not only a dumb response but takes away all free will. Likewise, if you want to explore ruins but your DM forces you in some fashion to follow his plot (not even try to direct you, but forces you), that's too strict for me. I don't even mind biting a weak plot hook, but I don't want to be drug through the plot like a wild west hero drug through town on the villain's larriat.
Pinotage said:
It's the second...and yes, while many adventures are railroady to some extent, a good adventure / DM maintains at least the appearance of choice.
I think the bad examples that people are giving are from DMs who have already figured out exactly how everything is going to happen, and NOTHING the PCs do will make a difference, one way or the other.
delericho
Legend
Pinotage said:
It's a question of choice. Suppose the PCs decide to ignore the mystery altogether, and wander into the hills to kill goblins. Or suppose they come up with some really clever way to solve the mystery in the first scene.
A good DM will run with it. A bad DM will overrule their actions by fiat, or contrive the situation so they have to go through the encounters in THE PLOT in order.
Warrior Poet
Explorer
Lately? I check the mirror.
I used to think I had mad skills, but it turns out that, while I'm a decent storyteller with some creativity, I have poor command of large amounts of rules, and a penchant for letting the campaign "get away from me."
By "get away from me" I don't mean that I try and keep it so closely heeled that there's never any flexibility (see below for railroading grades), but that I'm not very well organized when it comes to keeping track of all that's going on. Couple that with poor ability to manage rules heavy systems (like d20), and it can descend into chaos, or TPKs, or chaotic TPKs in Yuan-ti fortress dungeons.
I used to railroad, but I'm better about that now, and have made a conscious effort to shift from that and keep a more open experience that tells a story with the combined efforts of players, circumstance, and the environment/NPCs I generate. So, still working on that, but getting better. First semester (about, oh, 15 years or so) grade D+, second semester (last two years) grade C+. Teacher comments: Warrior Poet shows promise as a DM, though he needs to remember to let the story unfold as it will, and not worry about it "going" anywhere pre-determined.
I've learned that I work better (as a DM, I'm ok as a player) with rules light systems. I'm just not a good d20 DM, because in my experience it requires significant book-keeping that comes at a real price for me: lack of fun. I'm not very good at math (though playing D&D helps), so it takes me a long time to track all the various things going on "at once," and it's easy for me to get bogged down, which slows up play for everyone, and then my fear that the players are growing bored kicks in, which doesn't help my organization (or lack thereof).
For instance, for the sake of a cool "cinematic" moment in an old campaign, I ended up letting a character take an extra action at the end of a turn, and he felled a bad guy (it was a really cool moment, though! Honest!). Another player later pointed out to me that I had done that (I didn't realize I had, as I had done a poor job of tracking actions/move-equivalents in that round).
So, for now, I think when I DM, I need to stick with rules light systems that allow me to shift on the fly better than I find I can do in d20 (not saying it's not possible to shift on the fly in d20, as I'm sure quite a few people are good at it; it's just very hard for me). Last semester's grade: C-. This semester's grade: B-. Teacher comments: Warrior Poet bit off more than he could chew. He needs to start small, and build up to the more challenging systems. This also applies to his organizational skills, as well. Rules light systems may allow him to build the organizational ability he would need to feel more comfortable in a more rules intensive system. You have to crawl before you can walk, and he may find a better system for his abilities.
Keep in mind with all this I've been playing/DMing for more than 20 years! Yikes! You never stop learning (and you never stop having to go back to the basics every so often!)
Warrior Poet
I used to think I had mad skills, but it turns out that, while I'm a decent storyteller with some creativity, I have poor command of large amounts of rules, and a penchant for letting the campaign "get away from me."
By "get away from me" I don't mean that I try and keep it so closely heeled that there's never any flexibility (see below for railroading grades), but that I'm not very well organized when it comes to keeping track of all that's going on. Couple that with poor ability to manage rules heavy systems (like d20), and it can descend into chaos, or TPKs, or chaotic TPKs in Yuan-ti fortress dungeons.
I used to railroad, but I'm better about that now, and have made a conscious effort to shift from that and keep a more open experience that tells a story with the combined efforts of players, circumstance, and the environment/NPCs I generate. So, still working on that, but getting better. First semester (about, oh, 15 years or so) grade D+, second semester (last two years) grade C+. Teacher comments: Warrior Poet shows promise as a DM, though he needs to remember to let the story unfold as it will, and not worry about it "going" anywhere pre-determined.
I've learned that I work better (as a DM, I'm ok as a player) with rules light systems. I'm just not a good d20 DM, because in my experience it requires significant book-keeping that comes at a real price for me: lack of fun. I'm not very good at math (though playing D&D helps), so it takes me a long time to track all the various things going on "at once," and it's easy for me to get bogged down, which slows up play for everyone, and then my fear that the players are growing bored kicks in, which doesn't help my organization (or lack thereof).
For instance, for the sake of a cool "cinematic" moment in an old campaign, I ended up letting a character take an extra action at the end of a turn, and he felled a bad guy (it was a really cool moment, though! Honest!). Another player later pointed out to me that I had done that (I didn't realize I had, as I had done a poor job of tracking actions/move-equivalents in that round).So, for now, I think when I DM, I need to stick with rules light systems that allow me to shift on the fly better than I find I can do in d20 (not saying it's not possible to shift on the fly in d20, as I'm sure quite a few people are good at it; it's just very hard for me). Last semester's grade: C-. This semester's grade: B-. Teacher comments: Warrior Poet bit off more than he could chew. He needs to start small, and build up to the more challenging systems. This also applies to his organizational skills, as well. Rules light systems may allow him to build the organizational ability he would need to feel more comfortable in a more rules intensive system. You have to crawl before you can walk, and he may find a better system for his abilities.
Keep in mind with all this I've been playing/DMing for more than 20 years! Yikes! You never stop learning (and you never stop having to go back to the basics every so often!)
Warrior Poet
carpedavid
First Post
delericho said:
Right - it's also important to remember that there is a distinction between a linear adventure, in which the steps to complete the goal are layed out in a straightforward manner, and railroading, in which the PCs have no choice in how to proceed.
WampusCat43
Explorer
You mentioned this twice, and I'm still trying to see the problem with it. My players met my original (circa 1978) PC's in their very first campaign, and have come to view them as a good source of info and adventure. They drink with the dwarf, get healing from the cleric, get in trouble with the rogue, buy magic items from the wizard, and ignore the rangerTheAuldGrump said:
You need these type of NPC's anyway, why re-invent the wheel? As long as they stay in the background until needed, their well-developed histories and connections are a good source of material.
delericho said:
Even on a one-shot adventure? I can understand a campaign not being railroaded, but one shot adventure almost always suffer from it, don't they?
On the other hand, even if the PCs have a choice, can't the DM go with the choice but have the consequences of their choice just land them back in the main plot line. Is that railroading as well?
Pinotage
